WAR In NNI

we had a very solid group of drg war mnk sam, gave us great options in many situations. dry with gungnir for angon, war with ukon and tomahawk, mnk with vere for some nice blunt damage (lots of undead there) and amano sam just for some good damage. seemed to work for us very well. it also allowed us to pull from a larger group of people (as opposed to those original groups that would only take 4 sam's) to go back to the original topic. i think an empy war would do just fine, did great for us.

Necro response activate!



I've had nothing but positive experiences with Rag99 against fodder. Solid DPS, higher WS average, less crazy spikes. You know, the downward spikes where you miss the first hit, don't crit the second, and don't DA. 400 damage like a boss. At least you've got AM up for the rest of the mob you didn't kill.

The worst part for Ukon if you're going mob-to-mob (Nyzul kill all, for example) is that you're probably going to kill your mob with Ukko's, and spend a good deal of the 30 second AM1 running to the next mob. Ragnarok's relic damage boost translates to 20%~* perma ODD (~2/3 of AM1 ODD to state the obvious), no maintenance, planning, waste, or downtime. I like that it just works, and that I don't feel like I'm losing out just because I'm not engaged with AM up.

(Mis)Using Motenten's acclaimed DPS spreadsheets and the standard Valkyplate TP set, Ukon99 and Rag99 are neck and neck in melee DPS with Ukon's AM1 up. 189.3 to 187.2** in favor of Ukon, in fact. Problem for Ukon is, Reso with capped attack against fodder mobs is going to average 4.25k, whereas Ukko's is expected to average 3.29k. Ukko's is just not a great fodder smashing WS, the crits don't matter as much with capped attack, and the WSC/fTP and the swings thereof are just too low. If you've got some epic magic haste going, you could alternate Ukko and Upheaval to get a little more WS damage going while maintaining AM, but Reso has Upheaval beaten soundly as well.

The main situation that shouts Ukon these days is Voidwatch. No secret really, 300TP for AM3 at the press of a button, Champion's Tonic so you crit those ODDs and Ukko's, and TP bonus atmacites for even more WS critrate. Other than that, anywhere you can reliably put up a strong, long AM and maybe get a few lucky SCs in is about the closest I can get to coming up with a definitive win for Ukon over Rag. Lower cRatio would also play to Ukon, I guess.

Ukko's is great for being light based though. I've seen some serious chunks drop off some ADL tome NMs and ADL himself, Sekkanoki or otherwise. Fudo, Kaiten, Namas, Vere Smite, Metatron, CDC, Torcleaver, and of course other WAR's Ukkoing can seriously compound their damage by waiting a hair to SC left and right.

I'd be interested to hear what makes you guys (or anyone) so staunchly anti-Rag.

*This figure was in error, in the standard Valkyplate TP set, Ragnarok OD2.5 should equate to more like 16.56% ODD.
**182.1, with the above ODD rate.

I parse everything, so when I say throw Ukon/Rag/Apoc at it, it's because the majority of the time those three weapons consistently rule the parser. As to which is better for what, I don't open my mouth since I don't personally own two of the three.

I'm not anti-rag, but what I view as war's true advantage in NNI is fell cleave, which you can't use with Ragnarok. Also non killing floors such as specific if someone else finds it, or lamps are advantage ukon since embrava still has regain and you'll likely start next floor with AM3. those are my personal reasons for ukon>rag in nni.

this ODD is almost twice as high as it is in reality.

36% DA and 3% TA would be about 12.416% ODD since relics can only proc on the first hit of an attack round.

Also Fell Cleave is awesome in NNI.

Ukon in NNI is by far more than acceptable, they key is maximising your dmg output, as Austar keeps saying fell cleave is your friend, your best buddy on certain floors. What I hate most is seeing people just ukkos things when 2 fell cleave is enough to destroy an entire room.....

As a war on the final boss floor 100 you will be hard pressed to find any DD outdmg you while mighty strikes zerging it, be it with upheaval or resolution. Especially if you had 300tp on ukon to start so getting those crits in on AM3 while zergin. Nothing will beat it if your "doin it right" tell your LS people to stop being dipshits.

Where'd that come from? o.o;

Good catch, my conversion of Ragnarok OD2.5 to ODD% was erroneous and I made the edits. Your figure looks super low though, did you account for Rag relic procs being 50% more potent than ODD? Your value appears to be in the ballpark of OD2.5 proc rate per round, while mine sought to convert that figure into ODD for comparison to Empy AM ODD.


You always bork me cleaves, dipshit!

You have to be in front of me if you wanna claim mobs! If only you weren't running around in Powder Boots.

16% OD2.5 is 24% ODD equalized, which is still only about 14.2% ODD depending on how much TA/DA you have. I just went with your 20% since I don't know Ragnarok's ODX off the top of my head.

Guess it's time to show work and see where the disconnect is.

X ODD  = Rounds  * ODD

Swing    Swing     Round

Rounds per swing of Valkyplate TP set = 1/1.3097 = 0.7645
ODD/Round we agree is 0.24
Multiply the two, and it's 0.183 ODD per Swing, 18.3%.

I believe the units cancel out properly, if I'm doing it wrong please enlighten.

Using a smaller number will be easier to understand. You have 1 average hit per round with no multi hit. 24% x 1 = 24% obviously. You have 1 DA, your average hits per round is 1.01, of which only 1 will have a chance. So .99 * 24 = 23.76%.

Basically (1 - additional hits)*ODD.
So with your example (1-.3097)*24 = 16.5672% ODD

It seems so obvious now, thanks for the insight.

Somethings wrong if your LS is prioritizing 3 saladbowls over an Ukon.
Especially when each of those could have been an armageddon

I would argue they could have been masamunes for relevance in this thread. Either way, fell cleave is by far more useful outside of 2hr zerging bosses.