Ragnarok WAR TP Sets - Optimal

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Ragnarok WAR TP sets - Optimal
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By Mizzrym 2012-07-23 00:04:21  
I've been looking around and wondering if there is really a set worth 6hitting ragnarok with outside of VW. It seems that you give up too many stats and are better off going with 7hitting it?

Just wondering if any of the math people have math'd it out and determined what is optimal.

True 6hit
VW 6hit with Save TP 20 , regain 3, tpbonus atmacites
Zerg set (accounting for embrava/sam roll i'd guess)


seems like a lot of variables and nonsense to deal with :(

this seems to be the most a warrior could really get without being too crazy, but still seems a bit too much loss to me.



+51 TP total (armada has +6stp), with rag needing 37 average across all hits on /sam.


I tried searching all the relevant posts under war forums and none seemed to really address the issue...only thing i could find stated that better of 7hitting (this was before phorcys gear tho).

Looking for some math to back up what optimal sets are for above-mentioned scenarios.


Weaponskill would be this (+2 feet with MS obviously. grip depends on math):

[+]
 Lakshmi.Rearden
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By Lakshmi.Rearden 2012-07-23 00:24:18  
Rancor Collar, Brego gloves

Moonshade, Avant+1 gauntlets, Ogier's breeches depending on content, AF2+2 as the other option

AF3+2 hands are almost as good as brego with no marches/embrava, but still not better.
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By Mizzrym 2012-07-23 02:26:03  
Lakshmi.Rearden said: »
Rancor Collar, Brego gloves

Moonshade, Avant+1 gauntlets, Ogier's breeches depending on content, AF2+2 as the other option

AF3+2 hands are almost as good as brego with no marches/embrava, but still not better.


I am a bit confused at this post, you are saying for the super tp set posted, swap to rancor and brego? if you are destroying the xhit, its pointless, as it needs 37 average across all hits, else just roll with a standard that gains multiattack and capped haste. I would like to know which situations you are suggesting this for.

swapping those 2 pieces leaves you 18stp short on ws gear if you have rose strap (4), rajas (5) brutal (1), + the extra you accumulated in tp phase hitx5, which was 1 over, so +5. this gives 15, so 37-15 = 22 stp short on ws. Are you assuming max hits on reso? or some kinda of regain? Forgive me if my math is off, 3:30 am but i'm not seeing how that's better than a more standard set if you aren't attaining the xhit.


as for the ws gear, yeah, if you are in legion or something would prob need acc.
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By Lakshmi.Rearden 2012-07-23 02:46:41  
what? lol. You first asked if there was a way to make Rag 6 hit good outside of VW

Then you post a VW/zerg set which basically completely ignores the fact that you don't need STP with Embrava or Regain nor do you need to cap haste in VW.

As far as xhit, I don't think you know what you're doing.

You need 38sTP in TP phase to 6hit (True, WS+5) a Ragnarok when using 10sTP during WS - this requires that 3/5 hits land.

My set is a standard set, I'm not really sure what yours is. If I was going to make a VW zerg set, then I'd be able to drop 8% gear haste and use a Windbuffet belt for TP, I'd also drop my Armadaberk for a Valk Breastplate and gain 5TA, 1QA. I'd still use Brego gloves and I'd still use a Rancor collar. Ragnarok gets a sizeable portion of its totals from white damage.

edit: trying really hard not to be a ***, but what you're saying just doesn't make any sense to me. Specifically, this part that you keep repeating: +51 TP total (+6 stp armada), with rag needing 37 average across all hits on /sam.
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By Mizzrym 2012-07-23 03:02:45  
the set i posted was just the "maximum" amount of STP war could resonably get, wasn't set in stone or even something i use, just was a worst case, all stp gear, kinda set.

11 tp per hit base.

100tp in 6 hits = 16.7 tp/hit across all (assuming 1/5 hit reso)

11*x=16.7 solving for x = 1.518 (rounded to 52 stp)

/sam = 15stp, so 52-15 = 37 ?


I think I solved our miscommunication:

-------
Your set = 53 stp in tp phase which = 16.8 TP / hit. 5 hits = 84 TP phase

so would need 16 for WS? 25 total STP in ws phase = 13.7 TP first hit, and hitting 3/5 makes it add 2x1.2tp? 2.4tp added, which would be the 16.1 tp needed? I'm assuming this is what you meant? My math wasn't counting on extra hits (habit for sam). I guess you were confused why i wasn't counting atleast 3/5 hits, which I admit, i probably should have.


edited tp set, so this should be optimal 6hit for non VW/embrava, if i understood you right.

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By Lakshmi.Rearden 2012-07-23 03:12:32  
yes that should work fine
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By Mizzrym 2012-07-23 03:26:51  
off the topic a little bit, but what are your #s for zergs? (white versus ws). so far with 95 rag on war dragon zergs, i'm showing 25% white, 75% ws. Just wondered if this is the normal split (will finish relic +2 gloves aug tomorrow for enhanced mighty strikes duration).

chaos, fighters, misers, tact rolls. red curry bun. imo sam roll destroys tact, but that's what i was given. didn't use scourge either, i thought it would die rather soon after MS wore off but ally was light on DD i guess. 105,567 to dragon. 27,071 melee - 78,496 reso.
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By Gimpness 2012-07-23 04:36:47  
I'm not done with Rag just yet, but when I do finish it this is what I'd think to aim for.



This should be a 7-hit if you're /SAM as long as the first hit of Resolution landed. Obviously use AF3+2 Hands with Restraint up. If you need serious accuracy you could replace Ravager's earring with Ghillie +1 and Phorcys Mitts with Avant +1. Granted, I'd probably stick with Ukon if you need that much accuracy.

As for Voidwatch If you're using Valiant, Latitude, Discipline, and have a 10, 11, or lucky roll on Miser's then take out Phos for Windbuffet and Mars's for Tyrant's and you have a 5-hit (4 after ~40 tp return weaponskill).

I haven't bothered to work out Embrava situations yet, but I'd probably just pop on Windbuffet instead of Phos.


As for Resolution that seems about right, situational swaps being what Rearden said.


edit: I assume at least a 6 Store TP augment on the Armaberk.

edit2: errr as you were talking about 6-hits, I don't think it'd really be worth losing the restraint bonus on af3+2 hands (maybe use that when 'straint's down) since as you said, you're doing 25% white damage and 75% weaponskill damage.
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By Bahamut.Atoreis 2012-07-23 06:21:26  
Gimpness said: »
Granted, I'd probably stick with Ukon if you need that much accuracy.

Funny statement considering Ragnarok have more acc in both TP and WS set.
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-07-23 08:03:12  
WTF Moment 1 said: »
Granted, I'd probably stick with Ukon if you need that much accuracy.

Rag sets have more ACC

WTF Moment 2 said: »
As for Voidwatch If you're using Valiant, Latitude, Discipline, and have a 10, 11, or lucky roll on Miser's

Miser's got nerfed, don't use it even with 2 CORs you don't need to fear the white damage of Ukon or Rag.

WTF Moment 3 said: »
I haven't bothered to work out Embrava situations yet, but I'd probably just pop on Windbuffet instead of Phos.

No idea where this came from unless you have a DNC WAR isn't capping delay.
 Bahamut.Atoreis
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By Bahamut.Atoreis 2012-07-23 09:26:10  

Haha exactly my thoughts. Lack of any idea how this game works.
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By Gimpness 2012-07-23 12:45:21  
Cerberus.Taint said: »
Rag sets have more ACC
I have no Idea how I missed that it was only a difference in 20 skill.

Cerberus.Taint said: »
Miser's got nerfed, don't use it even with 2 CORs you don't need to fear the white damage of Ukon or Rag.
If you've got marches or embrava (most of the time when you have a COR you tend to have a SCH or a BRD) then I see no reason not to use Miser's (in voidwatch with Discipline), as you'll be swinging too fast to make Tactician's useful. Now... I'll assume you meant Fighter's over Miser's, in which case I find it hard to believe an extra 15-24% double attack rate would actually do better than shaving 2 hits off of your x-hit.

Cerberus.Taint said: »
No idea where this came from unless you have a DNC WAR isn't capping delay.
I don't either, it was 4am.


edit: if I'm completely off, please do correct me.
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By Bahamut.Havelock 2012-07-23 13:00:08  
Save tp doesnt shave 2 hits off x as its 25 tp more max you get over normal return and requires use of save tp atmacite which is not the best dd option. Double attack also affects ws damage in addition to faster tp build. Assuming you are the only person in ally with save tp atmacite it gives over dds like 5 tp more over normal return tops, which is one regain roll tick. Misers died with nerf and its best just to get over it.
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By Gimpness 2012-07-23 13:46:46  
Alright~ Correct any of this if it's wrong, but please do give me a legitimate answer if you're going to tell me it's wrong... not just A > B because it is. I don't do the greatest with this game's math, so I could also have the completely wrong Idea with this.

____________________________________________________________________________________________


Let's make the assumption that we have capped delay reduction regardless of what we're doing, since in most situations with a COR you at least have a BRD.

Miser's Roll: at least 20 Save TP with a lucky roll, 25 with an 11.

Atmacite of Discipline: 20 Save TP.

that means you have *at least* a 40 TP return regardless of what hits of your weaponskill land.

Ragnarok has 431 Delay, and with the set I posted above (21 Store TP) you're getting 15 TP per hit, meaning 4 regular TP hits is 60 TP. Add that to your 40 TP return and you've got a 5-hit.

This takes the regular 7-hit down to a 5-hit, ~28% increase in TP gain.

You're also swinging every 1.44 2.05 seconds (with capped delay reduction), gaining 100 TP in 5.76 8.2 seconds.

If you take it further, you'll more than likely have Monarch's drink up in voidwatch, meaning a 10 on Miser's would be perfectly fine, since you should be gaining at least 3 TP from regain before your 4 hits. Anything extra just adds to overflow, which is also a straight damage increase to Resolution.

____________________________________________________________________________________________


Let's again make the assumption we have capped delay reduction. I also take it you'd be using Kaggen's atmacite over Discipline? If not I can go back and change this... but that's the only way I can think that using Tactician's would be viable.

Tactician's Roll: 5 Regain at most (let's just assume it's an 11 because that's the most you'll be getting)

Atmacite of Coercion: 3 Regain

so you've got 9 Regain with Monarch's.

Again, assuming the set I posted above you're getting 14.5 TP per hit (15 if you replace Mars's with Tyrant's, Doing this as I go... will figure out which would be needed here in a minute) plus at least a 12.8 TP return from resolution (if you weaponskill in no more Store TP than Brutal). This means if you take 6 seconds to gain 100 TP you're getting 18 total TP from Regain, if you take 9 seconds to gain 100 TP you're getting 27 total TP from Regain, if you take 12 seconds to gain 100 TP you're getting 36 total TP from Regain, and if you take 15 seconds to gain 100 TP you're getting 45 total TP from Regain.

With capped delay reduction using a 431 Delay weapon (Ragnarok) you're swinging every 1.44 2.05 seconds.

This means with 4 swings it takes you 5.76 8.2 seconds to gain 72.8 TP, plus 18 TP from Regain and you're only at 90.8 TP... so you need another swing. 5 swings takes you 7.2 10.25 seconds and nets you 87.8 TP plus 18 27 TP from Regain, and totals you at 105.8 114.8 TP.

Now, if you're getting less than 5 Regain from Tactician's it's almost completely pointless to bother using it, and let's be honest here... you aren't going to be getting 11's 100% of the time.

____________________________________________________________________________________________


Some of those values may be slightly off, but it's still taking you an extra hit using Tactician's over Miser's. Sure, if you don't have marches Tactician's would be doing more than Miser's, but as I said... most times I have a COR I also have a BRD.

I really can't be assed to check everything for Fighter's, so let's just make the assumption it's a straight 24% increase to damage at most.

The fact that Miser's is netting you about a 28% increase in TP gain would make me think it'll be doing more, since you can only double attack on 60% of Resolution's hits at most.
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By Gimpness 2012-07-23 13:51:57  
oh *** me -_- keep forgetting WAR only gets 71.48% delay reduction with 2x march, haste, hasso.... ONE SECOND LEMME FIX THINGS D:


edit: okay fixed x.x have at it.
 Bahamut.Havelock
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By Bahamut.Havelock 2012-07-23 14:13:42  
I believe its 11 regain with 11 roll atmacite and monarch. Most ppl ask for chaos and fighters though, as this is most ws damage increase. And the above calculations doesnt factor doing procs and wings abuse. But just to repeat the most important point it requires all (or at least most) dds to be using save tp atmacite for misers to be worth using.
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-07-23 14:40:31  
Wings should never be used. (before the fight maybe)

WS delay,regain,high DA rate make xhits pretty much useless with extremely high buffs. Most mobs that require max buffs you'll benefit way more from TPbonus atmacites, Chaos and Fighters, then SaveTP atmacites and less att or DA.
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By Gimpness 2012-07-23 14:54:22  
What atmacites would you recommend using then?

Been using Valiant, Latitude, and Discipline then having COR use Miser's/Chaos. TPing in Windbuffet over Phos since Latitude and Valiant give 8% gear haste.

Like I said, I really don't see 15-24% DA doing better than a 28% increase in TP gain.

I mean, I guess I'm not factoring in human error, but still...



Bahamut.Havelock said: »
I believe its 11 regain with 11 roll atmacite and monarch. Most ppl ask for chaos and fighters though, as this is most ws damage increase. And the above calculations doesnt factor doing procs and wings abuse. But just to repeat the most important point it requires all (or at least most) dds to be using save tp atmacite for misers to be worth using.

ah you're right, was thinking Monarch's was only 1/tic.

Still missing 4-5 TP for a 4-hit, so it doesn't really matter that much :/

As far as wings go, you'd be getting them regardless of what rolls/atmacites so it doesn't need to be factored in. Procs are whatever, I think most people have things skilled up enough that they don't need regain.
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By Kyler 2012-07-23 18:35:05  
WAR MS embrava zergs VW

Atmacites valiant lattitude and w/e








Both allow for use of rav+2 hands for restraint if it floats your boat.

WS Reso

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By Kyler 2012-07-23 19:02:19  


For non VW, no regain situations, 6hit with at least 5stp on berk

Using white tathlum requires main hit+2 w/o bumps it to main hit +3 for 6hit


Or the 7hit which gives a lot more options on accessories



Can use phorcys mitts
Also can sub out rose strap for w/e if you want to use H.gorget and white tathlum

All preferences depending on if you are getting hit, accuracy, etc.
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2012-08-15 15:04:52  
anyone got a Legion set for Rag War?

So it would be the following 3:

1) legion set with embrava
2) legion set without embrava (rare but in case)
3) legion set with MS under embrava
4) legion set with MS without embrava
5) WS set with MS

Thank you for your help.

Edit: since I just got warrior to 99 with previously no history of gearing for it, what would be a list of things I would need for Rag War? I mean stuff like Relic hands +2 for MS duration, Emp hands +2 for restrain etc, more of Ra/Ex stuff. Also, would Wrathwing Nails fit in any of the builds if available?
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2012-08-15 16:00:33  
Ragnarok.Returner said: »
anyone got a Legion set for Rag War?

So it would be the following 3:

1) legion set with embrava
2) legion set without embrava (rare but in case)
3) legion set with MS under embrava
4) legion set with MS without embrava
5) WS set with MS

Thank you for your help.

Edit: since I just got warrior to 99 with previously no history of gearing for it, what would be a list of things I would need for Rag War? I mean stuff like Relic hands +2 for MS duration, Emp hands +2 for restrain etc, more of Ra/Ex stuff. Also, would Wrathwing Nails fit in any of the builds if available?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk&t=2m9s

Just havin some fun. :)
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By Siren.Thoraeon 2012-08-15 16:08:06  
I am getting closer to finishing my Ragnarok, so I figured I would start planning out my sets. For WAR/SAM, this is the set I have in mind:


(Armada has 6 STP and 3 DA)

This set is a 7-Hit. My biggest question is about the grip. Is it worth it to use Sword Strap? Even with capped magic haste and hasso, WAR will not be hitting the delay cap, so the -3% delay will always help. Though, in a MS zerg, I would probably be better off with brave grip and probably ravager's gorget (no Portus atm).

Thoughts?
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-08-15 16:09:24  
Phos!!
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By Siren.Thoraeon 2012-08-15 16:10:59  
Phoenix.Sehachan said: »
Phos!!
Yeah, that would be on the list of things to get. Priority is on getting the Bronze atm. My main concern is grip selection atm.

Oh yeah, once I get Ragnarok, would it even be worth going after Ukon? Or does Rag win in pretty much every situation, except maybe lolbyssea?
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By Siren.Thoraeon 2012-08-15 16:29:47  
Kin37ix said: »
If youre using Adaberk instead of Ravager's, using a rose strap to keep your six hit removes any advantage you might have gained from that trade off.

I submit this alternate 6-hit build:


A few problems I see:

Cannot use AF3+2 hands with Restraint.
Warrior cannot equip Hagneia Stone.
Losing a lot of DA.

Edit: Changed your set while I was typing.
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-08-15 17:23:32  
I was bored, does this suck?



Edit: or rancor, whatever.
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