Kannagi + Kikoku

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2010-06-21
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Kannagi + Kikoku
 Ragnarok.Baconweave
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By Ragnarok.Baconweave 2011-09-04 14:21:15  
I was wondering if dual wielding Kannagi + Kikoku, first if it would be as awesome as i hope and second, which would you main and offhand?
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-04 14:22:46  
Relics are stripped of all stats except damage and delay when offhanded. So no.
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 Carbuncle.Axle
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By Carbuncle.Axle 2011-09-04 14:28:26  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Relics are stripped of all stats except damage and delay when offhanded. So no.

They don't get triple dmg proc?
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-04 14:33:54  
no
 Ragnarok.Nemesio
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By Ragnarok.Nemesio 2011-09-04 14:33:56  
Carbuncle.Axle said: »
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Relics are stripped of all stats except damage and delay when offhanded. So no.

They don't get triple dmg proc?
No
 Leviathan.Jekyll
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By Leviathan.Jekyll 2011-09-04 15:24:27  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Relics are stripped of all stats except damage and delay when offhanded. So no.
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By kaida 2011-09-04 15:31:01  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Relics are stripped of all stats except damage and delay when offhanded. So no.
 Fairy.Ghaleon
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By Fairy.Ghaleon 2011-09-04 15:32:15  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Relics are stripped of all stats except damage and delay when offhanded. So no.
 Bahamut.Zangada
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By Bahamut.Zangada 2011-09-04 15:38:05  
Kannagi only offers extra AGI so if anything offhand that.
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-09-04 15:40:33  
Bahamut.Zangada said: »
Kannagi only offers extra AGI so if anything offhand that.

Lose Blade: Hi..
 Ramuh.Zangada
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By Ramuh.Zangada 2011-09-04 15:46:45  
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: »
Bahamut.Zangada said: »
Kannagi only offers extra AGI so if anything offhand that.

Lose Blade: Hi..

I dont have a relic so idk how good the ws is, i know Blade:Hi isnt anything special out of abyssea. But i assumed relic is better at 90 due to the higher dmg, extra attk, paralyze and hidden effect.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-04 15:48:42  
Metsu is ***lol, a quick glance at the wiki page could tell you that. Hi is still better than Jin outside Abyssea, particularly for high-level content since you don't have to worry about acc as much.
 Bahamut.Tajot
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By Bahamut.Tajot 2011-09-04 15:58:48  
Not only is Metsu not as powerful as Blade: Hi, losing the ODD for paralyze and 35 attack is a very poor decision.

I didn't really "test" the two but Metsu is nothing special and the only time I equip Kikoku is when I'm in town.
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 Sylph.Kiaru
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By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-09-04 16:00:38  
Kikoku is horrible.
 Ragnarok.Baconweave
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By Ragnarok.Baconweave 2011-09-04 20:04:01  
Do you think that they will make Kikoku an even weapon at level 99 compared to Kannagi?
 Phoenix.Fondue
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By Phoenix.Fondue 2011-09-04 20:10:10  
what was the reasoning behind making relics not work offhand :s

Tempered rdms wearing excal/mandau raping your churches and burning your women?
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 Bismarck.Fonseca
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By Bismarck.Fonseca 2011-09-04 20:11:50  
You could just ask Keityan. I'm pretty sure he/she would know what's up with that combo.
 Cerberus.Deadplaything
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By Cerberus.Deadplaything 2011-09-04 20:16:22  
Se needs to fix that so if it is equiped you still gain benefits regardless of which hand it is in. Someone who does that much work deserves to have the stats given.
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 Phoenix.Kirana
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By Phoenix.Kirana 2011-09-04 20:40:51  
Ragnarok.Baconweave said: »
Do you think that they will make Kikoku an even weapon at level 99 compared to Kannagi?
I honestly think SE will attempt to make each relic better than its respective empy by 99. However, they will fail miserably at doing so and only half of them will end up being decent.
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 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-09-18 08:33:37  
Phoenix.Kirana said: »
Ragnarok.Baconweave said: »
Do you think that they will make Kikoku an even weapon at level 99 compared to Kannagi?
I honestly think SE will attempt to make each relic better than its respective empy by 99. However, they will fail miserably at doing so and only half of them will end up being decent.

This.

Relics with a shittily designed WS (Metatron, Final Heaven, Metsu) need an extraordinary boost to be competitive with Empyrean WS AND the aftermath. Relic FTP modifiers would probably need be increased to 4/5 to match Empyreans, become multi hit, critable, and not be based on HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE mods.

And I just don't see SE caring or being smart enough to do that though. Most likely they will just keep increasing the WS bonus from 25% to maybe 35% or 40%, but that won't be enough for the WS that were already shitty.

The ODD aftermaths can be balanced by raising the hidden triple proc rate to about 15%. I do anticipate that this will happen though given that the rate was already increased to 8.5%
 Asura.Dtroyy
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By Asura.Dtroyy 2011-09-18 09:59:03  
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
no
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-09-18 10:02:18  
lol sup Gred. How are things holdin out? I may be back around on Wednesday to check out new ***, but based on what they said about MNK, I may just log in, cap everything to 95, and get back off.

With nothing added, no more goals, etc, but we'll see.
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-09-19 04:36:41  
They are adding new Voidwatch tiers I thought?
 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2011-09-19 04:47:27  
They are but a lot of people don't like Voidwatch for w/e reason. I am assuming its because of the loot distribution but I like the fights.
 Phoenix.Urteil
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By Phoenix.Urteil 2011-09-19 04:54:47  
SE has this crazy ability to take really good ideas and pull some HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE facet out of a hat and ruin it.


I.e Voidwatch and Distribution systems.
 Bahamut.Atoreis
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By Bahamut.Atoreis 2011-09-19 06:08:37  
Sylph.Gredival said: »
And I just don't see SE caring or being smart enough to do that though. Most likely they will just keep increasing the WS bonus from 25% to maybe 35% or 40%, but that won't be enough for the WS that were already shitty.

That's not really true.

Scourge at 100TP is very close to torcleaver and overall Ragnarok is much better weapon for hard mobs.

Namas/Coronach are equal or stronger than Jishnu/Wildfire (outside and for no pdt/mdt mobs) since relic on ranaged is dmg x3 is equal to 17% of dmg x2 and it's up all the time so it's really close to 30% from 100TP empyrean. On top of that you have much better raccuracy/rattack on relics.

CDC is much stronger than KoTR but that mainly because of jobs that can use Excalibur (low att) On trash mobs with dual wield KoTR should be much closer to CDC. Overall aftermath from empyrean shouldnt beat +att,add effect and 8% for 2.5x damage.

Catastrophe avg more than Quietus in most cases and drains *** ton of HP and gives you haste that allow for a better TP equip selection. Redemption aftermath is stronger but is also has much less accuracy from both, weapon itself and TP equip and sometime this can be a large boost to DPS.

Final heaven has for now no chance with Vsmite. Final heaven will avg around 60% of Vsmite damage. TP is a lot closer because h2h has *** aftermath (only works for one hand) so relic 8% is rather 4% for x3 and Veret 30% is rather 15% for x2 (4% for x3 is equal to 8% of x2) and those makes TP damage much less affected by aftermath/relic hidden. Veret wins by a lot none the less. Spharai is a weapon made mainly for defense tho so that has a lot of sense. Having equal DD output and +13 (and more probably at 95-99) counter would be kinda broken.

Ukonvasara in term of DD has probably highest advantage over relic counterpart from all empyreans/relics. -20%DT is also small bonus in the abyssea era but that might change soon. That being said Conqueror can triumph Ukon in term of DD if the 2-3 will be potent enough.

Relic/Empyrean polearms are generally weak compered to mythic but from those two relic is much better then empyrean simply because it doesn't need specific WS to sustain it's 8% for 2.5x damage ( I also heard that relic hidden effect works with jumps but idk if that's true) and +35accuracy and def down might be a huge bonus too.

Mercy stroke is very close with Rudra at 100TP and both weapon are very close on DD output for THF.

Fudo wins with Kaiten but only because of overtping and TP earring. Otherwise at 100TP Kaiten wins by 5%. Aftermath makes Masa better but overall both weapon are very close and with evasive mobs when +35 accuracy start being useful then Amano is even better overall.

Metsu is kinda similar to KoTR but you can use :jin. Metsu should be much closer to :hi on trash mobs and aftermath is again 8% vs 16% because of only one hand having ODD (like with h2h). This difference in aftermath/relic hidden is probably even out with +35 attack. Kannagi is not really much better than Kikoku.
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 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-09-19 09:18:52  
Bahamut.Atoreis said: »
That's not really true.

Scourge at 100TP is very close to torcleaver and overall Ragnarok is much better weapon for hard mobs.

Namas/Coronach are equal or stronger than Jishnu/Wildfire (outside and for no pdt/mdt mobs) since relic on ranaged is dmg x3 is equal to 17% of dmg x2 and it's up all the time so it's really close to 30% from 100TP empyrean. On top of that you have much better raccuracy/rattack on relics.

CDC is much stronger than KoTR but that mainly because of jobs that can use Excalibur (low att) On trash mobs with dual wield KoTR should be much closer to CDC. Overall aftermath from empyrean shouldnt beat +att,add effect and 8% for 2.5x damage.

Catastrophe avg more than Quietus in most cases and drains *** ton of HP and gives you haste that allow for a better TP equip selection. Redemption aftermath is stronger but is also has much less accuracy from both, weapon itself and TP equip and sometime this can be a large boost to DPS.

Final heaven has for now no chance with Vsmite. Final heaven will avg around 60% of Vsmite damage. TP is a lot closer because h2h has *** aftermath (only works for one hand) so relic 8% is rather 4% for x3 and Veret 30% is rather 15% for x2 (4% for x3 is equal to 8% of x2) and those makes TP damage much less affected by aftermath/relic hidden. Veret wins by a lot none the less. Spharai is a weapon made mainly for defense tho so that has a lot of sense. Having equal DD output and +13 (and more probably at 95-99) counter would be kinda broken.

Ukonvasara in term of DD has probably highest advantage over relic counterpart from all empyreans/relics. -20%DT is also small bonus in the abyssea era but that might change soon. That being said Conqueror can triumph Ukon in term of DD if the 2-3 will be potent enough.

Relic/Empyrean polearms are generally weak compered to mythic but from those two relic is much better then empyrean simply because it doesn't need specific WS to sustain it's 8% for 2.5x damage ( I also heard that relic hidden effect works with jumps but idk if that's true) and +35accuracy and def down might be a huge bonus too.

Mercy stroke is very close with Rudra at 100TP and both weapon are very close on DD output for THF.

Fudo wins with Kaiten but only because of overtping and TP earring. Otherwise at 100TP Kaiten wins by 5%. Aftermath makes Masa better but overall both weapon are very close and with evasive mobs when +35 accuracy start being useful then Amano is even better overall.

Metsu is kinda similar to KoTR but you can use :jin. Metsu should be much closer to :hi on trash mobs and aftermath is again 8% vs 16% because of only one hand having ODD (like with h2h). This difference in aftermath/relic hidden is probably even out with +35 attack. Kannagi is not really much better than Kikoku.

I said "Relics with a shittily designed WS (Metatron, Final Heaven, Metsu)" not "All the relics have shittily designed WS"

:/

EDIT: And Hi beats Jin even outside I believe
 Siren.Barber
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By Siren.Barber 2011-09-19 09:29:18  
Is yoichi/namas really as good/better than gandiva/jishnus outside? I don't know anyone with one but I had always heard yoichi was the 'never pull hate' bow and gandiva was the 'big damage' bow.
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