Are We Hypocrites? (Aeonic SMN Discussion)

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Are We Hypocrites? (Aeonic SMN Discussion)
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 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-11-21 15:20:51  
Shiva.Spynx said: »
Fu is the only AC-burn friendly omen boss too as its special moves deals no damage and is only affects by player buffs. Have 1 tank with 3-4 buffs pull and VS it in 30 secs. Of course RNG also works pretty well but enmity can become an issue.

Not really as pulling his attention will immediately kill the pet.
 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-11-21 15:21:31  
Kylos no offense taken or seen. Certainly agree it's not a big deal. Like I said, just wanted to point out that i only feared that casual readers versus those actually paying attention to what you're saying might assume things.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-21 15:26:01  
My advice to them would be to read posts properly, and if they are unsure, ask the people here and we'll inform them otherwise. The only thing I wanted to do was say that a group doesn't need to SMN burn everything as my group has beaten almost everything without. Aside from the one example I provided, which I also said wasn't necessary as we could've beaten Fu without a couple of Summoners using Astral Conduit.

I didn't think such a tiny comment could be misunderstood so easily, there's many ways to win in this game, and rarely is any group required to use one absolute setup with essential jobs. There's so many ways to win, and no one should ever believe a NM needs a summoner .. most (but not all!) of them need a tank and a healer, but they certainly don't need a summoner.

Edit: "I think the only NM we did burn was Fu, but it's specifically made for pet jobs so it didn't feel bad to do it that way, although I'm sure we could do it without."

I see now .. it's probably because I said "specifically", which is a pretty broad term which can be misunderstood. I apologize for not explaining my comment further.
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 Leviathan.Stamos
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By Leviathan.Stamos 2017-11-21 15:29:17  
It does create some really bad players on other jobs. If you go into a PUG party expecting someone to be decent because they have an Aeonic you will be surprised. The same way Abyssea did in a sense.

(This does not apply to everyone, clam down)
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-21 15:31:37  
Leviathan.Stamos said: »
It does create some really bad players on other jobs. If you go into a PUG party expecting someone to be decent because they have an Aeonic you will be surprised. The same way Abyssea did in a sense.

(This does not apply to everyone, clam down)

Exactly, I can imagine the amount of players who have only made Aeonics because they paid a bunch of gil to a merc, and never learned how to beat NMs properly with their gimmicks. That's why I'm discouraging the use of burning in my group, even if we're struggling to win. We need to figure out how they work .. or there's no point playing the game. We might as well just pay someone to play it for us, and only log in to mess about with our new toys.
 Asura.Gwindor
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By Asura.Gwindor 2017-11-21 15:32:00  
Asura.Azagarth said: »
Well I think its more people gear a job to use it, but the only "hard" events were aeonics to gear for. So its like this. You gear up a top end DNC (w/e dd) for example. However you cannot use said DNC because its not a smn in the fights. However you want the weapon that benefits DNC, an aeonic. So you lv smn to get said weapon, to then have it on a job you still cannot use having said weapon. Meaning your DNC is useless even with an aeonic that you got w/o using dnc.

Thats the wtf circle of logic that makes people mad about smn method. If smn "could" be used, but not required from people then ya, none would care. However at the current state very few will not use the SMN method bc pops are expensive, time is precious, and we are lazy as MMO players because the game has went into ez mode years ago. /shrug.

true strike !!!

ppl are lazy,
ppl don't want to farm,
ppl are butthurt at SMN.... BUT
ppl are stupid NOT TO LVL IT and gear it...

stop complaining
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By zaxtiss 2017-11-21 16:10:26  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
My advice to them would be to read posts properly, and if they are unsure, ask the people here and we'll inform them otherwise. The only thing I wanted to do was say that a group doesn't need to SMN burn everything as my group has beaten almost everything without. Aside from the one example I provided, which I also said wasn't necessary as we could've beaten Fu without a couple of Summoners using Astral Conduit.

I didn't think such a tiny comment could be misunderstood so easily, there's many ways to win in this game, and rarely is any group required to use one absolute setup with essential jobs. There's so many ways to win, and no one should ever believe a NM needs a summoner .. most (but not all!) of them need a tank and a healer, but they certainly don't need a summoner.

Edit: "I think the only NM we did burn was Fu, but it's specifically made for pet jobs so it didn't feel bad to do it that way, although I'm sure we could do it without."

I see now .. it's probably because I said "specifically", which is a pretty broad term which can be misunderstood. I apologize for not explaining my comment further.
ahhh i mainly think it was my fault for making a comment about it while i was to tired to think right lol anyway as you were! have fun!
 
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By fonewear 2017-11-21 17:59:36  
eslim said: »
jesus christ would be disappoint.

That's almost a complete sentence.
 Bismarck.Dekusutaa
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By Bismarck.Dekusutaa 2017-11-21 17:59:55  
Quetzalcoatl.Senaki said: »
I've noticed that people seem to dislike the Smn method, or rather, always put down the method whenever people discuss how to do Aeonics. It seems as though people are not happy with using the method, and often refer to it as the "Easy" / "Cheating" method. Ironically, a vast majority of people currently doing aeonics are using this method. I'm still not entirely sure how this method is all that much more cheating than the Bst-method or Blm-death-method used to be prior to the nerfs. So perhaps, are we just hypocrites? Saying something is bad -> then proceeding to exploit it? (I'm guilty of this as well)

Before this, people just used BLM Mass nuking death on a darkness SC. In the old days, you just bring 1 or 2 RDM/BLM to CS stunlock bosses and zerg them to death.

I don't think any of them are cheatier than the rest. Content will move on and things will shift as they always do.

Either way, let's just enjoy this game together.
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 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-11-21 18:41:29  
I guess the best way to describe it would be to say FFXI has it's own difficulty settings, similar to a lot of single player RPGs.

•Easy Mode: BLM+RNG method. Dealing damage at a range with little enmity issues. Difficuly comes from how good your tanks and supports are.
•Normal Mode: Melee burn. DDs need top tier TP and WS sets. Mages and support need to be attentive and good.
•Hard Mode: Trying to convince people MNK is actually a respectable DD.
•Game Genie Hack Mode: SMN AC zerg method.
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 Shiva.Arislan
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By Shiva.Arislan 2017-11-21 18:52:52  
BLM + SCH'ing things wasn't exactly simple/easy. It required a lot of coordination, timing and teamwork. It entailed more than just prebuff + pop JA + destroy.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-21 19:10:31  
Even rngs often require some attention to enmity considering how fast you still can cap
 Ragnarok.Phuoc
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By Ragnarok.Phuoc 2017-11-21 21:17:35  
I really hope those putting down smn methods in game when it comes to real life, take always the long route to do things instead of the shortest, most efficient way because you know, dem challenges.

To the OP: yes i think many are hypocrites, it happened with BST before when everyone and their mother cried about BST being broken, specially 1 in ragna who made a thread in the OF with "nerf bst" just to use bst later on for ambuscade and some other stuff, hypocresy at its finest i call it lol.

And as mentioned in this thread (think frod did), if albumen and company werent helms no one, and i repeat, n.o. o.n.e. would give a ***over them because their drops largely suck or are outdated, they just happen to be part of the aeonic path and that's why some ppl rant over them.

Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
I guess the best way to describe it would be to say FFXI has it's own difficulty settings, similar to a lot of single player RPGs.

•Easy Mode: BLM+RNG method. Dealing damage at a range with little enmity issues. Difficuly comes from how good your tanks and supports are.
•Normal Mode: Melee burn. DDs need top tier TP and WS sets. Mages and support need to be attentive and good.
•Hard Mode: Trying to convince people MNK is actually a respectable DD.
•Game Genie Hack Mode: SMN AC zerg method.

This and just add that if i could have used the smn way for aeonics, i would from day 1, i never had so much stress over an event in my ffxi life (setting it up, doing strats, gathering people, evading *** ups) because against what most people are doing now, i started them when they were "hard" and there were no aeonics around, i'd rather go back to 3hours and half dynamis as whm than doing aeonics outside smn zerg and over 20+ aeonic paths done (in which 9 i got 1 and after the fourth it was all cosmmetic) because its just a pure BS grind.

Oh and before people try to troll with "but you didnt do content the hard way", yes i've done it with all setups except mnk (only pimp mnk i had at the time was primex but he came other jobs) so yea, SMN ftw.
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By Meril1 2017-11-21 21:38:22  
When I first read the topic "are we hypocritical" I wasn't expecting to see what I read in the post. What I find hypocritical are the SMN's that called for nerfs to other OP jobs cause SMN was in such a bizarre spot for so long. Then when they get the limelight and become OP, they're all " don't you dare nerf us" that, IMO is the only hypocrisy I see.
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 Fenrir.Richybear
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By Fenrir.Richybear 2017-11-21 22:38:16  
I mean, SE was sorta on the right path with the whole picking of a weapon KI based on the job you were on, but it takes 5 seconds to burn to 99. Imagine if instead of just kill all the NMs Zi-Tah ~> Reisenjima, if they didn't count progress unless it was tied into the job(s) on said Aeonic you chose
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 Shiva.Spynx
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-11-21 23:09:27  
Asura.Frod said: »
Shiva.Spynx said: »
Fu is the only AC-burn friendly omen boss too as its special moves deals no damage and is only affects by player buffs. Have 1 tank with 3-4 buffs pull and VS it in 30 secs. Of course RNG also works pretty well but enmity can become an issue.

Not really as pulling his attention will immediately kill the pet.
Pets have innate 50% PDT and at least couple 1k of HP, Fu will take few hits to kill a single Ramuh and there are at least 3-4 of them spamming VS for 99k. Poor Fu has no chances to stay alive and even if it does you can just resummon and Apogee VS > VS > RD > Apogee > VS > VS > WC > repeat.
 Asura.Syto
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By Asura.Syto 2017-11-22 00:11:03  
Regardless of difficulty.

The population of the game continues to rise.

Let's play anyway we want.

Enjoy helping the newcomers rise up and prepare for the next content coming up.

Let the old Emotionally Disfunctional Elitists Self implode, they are replaced with new blood by minute..

I agree with Eijin..

Several modes of gameplay, pick and choose your path...

Have fun with it.

No longer do the Number of Aeonics aquired gauge an LS's skill level nor the player's skill level.. I look at these weapons like Abyssea Empy level weapons now.. Easy to get if you want.. or you can level sync if you want some more challenge..
 Asura.Seriweri
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By Asura.Seriweri 2017-11-22 11:16:52  
For my first aeonic, I pugged all of escha zitah t3+ in the rare occasion of a great shout group, smn were present for buffing and some bp, but not for ac/af zerging. Soloed the ruaun T1s the day after, and pugged my way up to kirin/woc after that, again no ac burn being used. I then rearranged some private schedules so I could actually join my own LS on their clears. We melee killed everything in 16-18 man alliances, including schah.
However, I was late to log in on the day we/they killed vinipata, so we ac burned it for me in a 5man party after the regular event. Do I feel bad about that? No.

My LS sadly stopped doing aeonics after this run, in favor of dynamis, so I started dualboxing my way through zitah over the past few days, mostly on sch. Pugged pazuzu in a regular setup, blu/geo dualboxed pixies and then couldn´t find people for wrathhare for a few evenings... so I called in a friend for diaga spam while I ac burned it. Do I feel bad about that? Why should I?
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-11-22 11:22:17  
Asura.Syto said: »
The population of the game continues to rise.


Nobody should 'feel bad' or feel that they shouldn't be using AC while it is in the game.

The point is that SE has yet to release any harder content, there's no reason to invalidate what we do have. This is easy to understand for anyone with any knowledge of game theory/development. It's pretty easy to understand for anyone who can take a step back and look at the actual situation, too. Those who don't understand probably never will, which is why this argument just goes in circles once every two weeks.

As far as SE is concerned, they're allowing it because it's basically a login campaign for them. Let people finally get things they couldn't before, it keeps them playing. It wouldn't even be an issue if they were able to release new and challenging content, but dynamis is a flop so far.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-11-22 13:10:41  
Bismarck.Dekusutaa said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Senaki said: »
I've noticed that people seem to dislike the Smn method, or rather, always put down the method whenever people discuss how to do Aeonics. It seems as though people are not happy with using the method, and often refer to it as the "Easy" / "Cheating" method. Ironically, a vast majority of people currently doing aeonics are using this method. I'm still not entirely sure how this method is all that much more cheating than the Bst-method or Blm-death-method used to be prior to the nerfs. So perhaps, are we just hypocrites? Saying something is bad -> then proceeding to exploit it? (I'm guilty of this as well)

Before this, people just used BLM Mass nuking death on a darkness SC. In the old days, you just bring 1 or 2 RDM/BLM to CS stunlock bosses and zerg them to death.

I don't think any of them are cheatier than the rest. Content will move on and things will shift as they always do.

Either way, let's just enjoy this game together.

There have always been times in FFXI history where the playerbase abused a certain tactic because it was (1) easy (2) took away a mob's cheese "I-Win" move (as Saevel puts it), and (3) practically guaranteed a win. At one point Chainspell stun was a thing. Players even locked AV into a wall so he couldn't fight back. The perfect defense SMN era had its time. BST spamming was a thing. Ranged shooting. DRK SEBW kraken club/rune axe spam. I could go on but you get the point. Over time, SE had to negate some of the tactics that the players invented because it showed they were smarter than the development team.

And its not that the content at the time was too difficult to beat (aside from AV). It's just that players got smart and wanted to maximize their efforts for something, so they found the easiest path of least resistance to clear a content. Honestly, how does a SMN spam strategy take away from anyone else's ability to clear the content with a "traditional" setup. Who really cares? Unless your motivating factor in your vitriol is due to jealousy, it doesn't matter who is beating what with easy/cheap tactics as it doesn't affect you.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-22 13:16:54  
I mean you are right other OP methods have existed though none are on par with this. But as mentioned a lot of the more broken ones (or at least perceived more broken ones) got fixed for a reason
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2017-11-22 13:19:43  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Honestly, how does a SMN spam strategy take away from anyone else's ability to clear the content with a "traditional" setup. Who really cares? Unless your motivating factor in your vitriol is due to jealousy, it doesn't matter who is beating what with easy/cheap tactics as it doesn't affect you.

To be quite frank, it's an asura only issue. Maybe odin/fenrir.

Giving shitty players free zero effort aeonics with SMN feeds into the REMA ONRY DD mentality, and it punishes good players who are capable of outperforming rema scrubs.

It's just a shitty thing to do. My mules will never have remas, but I outperform hundreds of rema users. Their ability to join shouts is hampered by the scrubs "taking my job".

We're not allowed to post names, but I can give you literally hundreds of "players" with remas that don't have a single god damn clue about anything other than they have a shiney weapon.

The shouts for REMA for EASY ambuscade and UNM is a direct result of SMN. I mean ffs there are REMA shouts for CP parties, that's probably unheard of on any other server.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-11-22 13:38:54  
I agree with every word you said, and yes, it's a horrible issue on Asura. But this game is at the point where you can no longer go by their gear to get an accurate gauge of anything. It's really word of mouth and reputation that players need to share in-game so we don't get duped into joining one of these scrubs.

To be quite fair, those same people who can buy an aeonic and have no clue about the game can just as easily buy every Omen drop including bodies, can buy any relic, empyrean, or mythic/ergon weapon with zero effort, and still attain the same outcome. The black market and the players who allow for these insane blanket standards are to blame, and nobody is going to stop making good money for no effort, so you have to blame the people of Asura for buying into the REMA ONRY meta of Asura for the most trivial of events.

So yes, its a problem, but with the end result. Oh, and send me the list of names of players who suck, I need to add to my running total.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2017-11-22 13:43:43  
Quetzalcoatl.Senaki said: »
Saying something is bad -> then proceeding to exploit it?

hypocrisy is the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform...

so if you just state an opinion that smn burning is easy mode and then you go and do it. that isn't hypocricy... it's just stating the obvious. driving somewhere in a car is easier than walking. that doesn't make car drivers hypocrites...

however if you claimed that smn burning was cheating and that you were above such cheating methods and then went and did it anyway... now we're talking about hypocracy...

unfortunately, like a lot of words, hypocrite gets overused and misused so often that it's actual meaning is being lost.

true hypocrisy needs all three components.

1. state that an action is morally reprehensible
2. make the claim that you are morally superior to those that engage in such action or like action
3. get caught doing the same or a similar action

in another example you can not like going to the doctor for medical treatment but then go to a doctor to be treated for an illness and that doesn't mean you are a hypocrite. it just means you are doing something that you don't particularly like
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 Shiva.Spynx
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-11-22 13:50:19  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
The shouts for REMA for EASY ambuscade and UNM is a direct result of SMN. I mean ffs there are REMA shouts for CP parties, that's probably unheard of on any other server.

Wait what, that's a thing even for CP party now? o.o People with shiny weapons but no other gear or knowledge to back them up is an extremely common situation but I agree with you that becomes a problem when the whole server has a mentality "REMA or gtfo"
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-22 13:57:37  
Shiva.Spynx said: »
Asura.Eiryl said: »
The shouts for REMA for EASY ambuscade and UNM is a direct result of SMN. I mean ffs there are REMA shouts for CP parties, that's probably unheard of on any other server.

Wait what, that's a thing even for CP party now? o.o People with shiny weapons but no other gear or knowledge to back them up is an extremely common situation but I agree with you that becomes a problem when the whole server has a mentality "REMA or gtfo"
I've actually seen it on other servers... but it is often meant with wtf are you smoking shout backs.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-11-22 14:01:31  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
There have always been times in FFXI history where the playerbase abused a certain tactic because it was (1) easy (2) took away a mob's cheese "I-Win" move (as Saevel puts it), and (3) practically guaranteed a win. At one point Chainspell stun was a thing. Players even locked AV into a wall so he couldn't fight back. The perfect defense SMN era had its time. BST spamming was a thing. Ranged shooting. DRK SEBW kraken club/rune axe spam. I could go on but you get the point. Over time, SE had to negate some of the tactics that the players invented because it showed they were smarter than the development team.

And its not that the content at the time was too difficult to beat (aside from AV). It's just that players got smart and wanted to maximize their efforts for something, so they found the easiest path of least resistance to clear a content. Honestly, how does a SMN spam strategy take away from anyone else's ability to clear the content with a "traditional" setup. Who really cares? Unless your motivating factor in your vitriol is due to jealousy, it doesn't matter who is beating what with easy/cheap tactics as it doesn't affect you.

Everyone's argument has not been against people exploiting cheese mechanics to get a leg up. Like you listed, it's more or less always been an ever changing thing in XI's long history. The crux of your argument, however, is that everything you listed was patched/nerfed.

The argument is that AC zerg is by far the most broken cheese in every measurable metric conceivable in the entire history of the game and has not been addressed. Explain how it's logical to recently nerf BST and GEO with the knowledge that AC zerg exists.

People label the pro-nerf crowd as jealous/toxic people when it could not be further from the truth. It's an unsustainable business plan that will eventually dry up and leave the game worse off if not addressed. You can debate if the game would have already died if not for the influx of people coming back for easy Aeonics, but I think they could have handled that better without destroying endgame balance and turning XI into a WoW/14 clone.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2017-11-22 14:28:43  
Frankly, i like it when someone comes up w/ a cool strategy for taking down an NM.

its exactly the kind of creativity I love about this game. All the jobs have these different battle balances. Dev's making creative fights, and players finding Creative solutions is what makes the game so fun.


There are so many jobs, so many subjob possibilities and so many possible play styles within a single job, that when you find a unique approach, or very effective synergy of abilities, environment, gear, etc, your'e doing it RIGHT.
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 Bahamut.Baozzer
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By Bahamut.Baozzer 2017-11-22 14:31:25  
Wow so much butt hurt. Everyone stop what they are doing now and go 18/18 WHM and kill everything. You wanted a challenge right?
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