Raetic Weapons Testing / Discussions

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Raetic weapons testing / discussions
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 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-11-27 15:16:51  
Entropy sucks, though, so you'd be losing a notable amount of DPS even after the ~200 TP you lose swapping weapons.

Plus, that'd require having two Raetic +1 weapons, haha.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-11-27 15:21:55  
clearlyamule said: »
Well just remember vorseals give a good 200 mp so non mp jobs aren't going to be having tons though will depend on job and what otherwise optimal gear choices are. iirc my rng is only around 300 in it's midshot set.

And while geas fete does restore mp each fight remember with attack speeds being what they are it's quite possible to deplete your pool in 30 seconds or so. Luckily refresh vorseals will help some there but ws swapping might kill some too (time to start locking some pieces if they lower your current mp lol?) so will probably need some form of mp regeneration. Howl's a pretty good choice though since it's gain rate chances with attack speed to keep matching depletion and at the right phase 2hrs probably gain more than they lose. Maybe aspir samba for similar reason

Without any refresh, you're looking at 20 attack rounds until you're depleted. Without Samurai Roll I would wager you would need somewhere between 2-3 rounds per WS, and with Samurai Roll between 1-2. I don't think anything besides Helm/T4 live longer than 10 WS from a single DPS. That's been my experience anyways.
 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-11-27 15:25:30  
T2 Reisenjima mobs do if you're solo :D
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-11-27 16:31:02  
The bangles combined with Flume belt on RNG are kind of neat. You pretty much always have some mp. Though the proc rates are probably lower than other jobs. The Enmity reduction seems good so far.
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-11-27 18:25:04  
The enmity mechanic does seem interesting. If the conversion rate for enmity loss is the same as Double Attack, then BLM could lose 100% of their enmity after getting hit once.
 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-11-27 18:40:08  
It's not even close to that strong.
 Asura.Warusha
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By Asura.Warusha 2017-11-27 18:46:02  
I think the point is that losing 5% of nearly 3k mp might amount to a lot of enmity lost. Frankly I don't have issues on BLM unless the tank isn't paying attention.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-11-27 18:57:07  
Odin.Geriond said: »
It's not even close to that strong.

Is there any testing to back this up?
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 Odin.Geriond
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By Odin.Geriond 2017-11-27 19:26:41  
It's easy to eyeball that it's not as strong as the double attack; with 1800 MP, mobs will continue to beat on you for a long time if your enmity was very high. With that much MP, if it was as strong as the DA, you'd lose all of your enmity in two hits.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-27 19:47:15  
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Well just remember vorseals give a good 200 mp so non mp jobs aren't going to be having tons though will depend on job and what otherwise optimal gear choices are. iirc my rng is only around 300 in it's midshot set.

And while geas fete does restore mp each fight remember with attack speeds being what they are it's quite possible to deplete your pool in 30 seconds or so. Luckily refresh vorseals will help some there but ws swapping might kill some too (time to start locking some pieces if they lower your current mp lol?) so will probably need some form of mp regeneration. Howl's a pretty good choice though since it's gain rate chances with attack speed to keep matching depletion and at the right phase 2hrs probably gain more than they lose. Maybe aspir samba for similar reason

Without any refresh, you're looking at 20 attack rounds until you're depleted. Without Samurai Roll I would wager you would need somewhere between 2-3 rounds per WS, and with Samurai Roll between 1-2. I don't think anything besides Helm/T4 live longer than 10 WS from a single DPS. That's been my experience anyways.
Makes sense in those well buffed situations guess you can make your fast reisin fights even faster yay.

Also for the bangles discussion if anybody has a pair it's pretty easy to test. If it wasn't cp campaign I might try.

Edit: actually now that I think about it might have to look up the enmity changes not sure everything's been reworked since all the crazy especially higher level changes they did
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-11-27 19:57:39  
@snaps
can you confirm if it floors before dividing by two or only at the end?

i'm looking at
floor(mp / 20 / 2)
and
floor(floor(mp / 20) / 2)
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-11-27 20:06:04  
I don't think it matters because 20 is divisible by 2
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-11-27 20:10:26  
yeah you're right. I was thinking of multiplying by 0.05 instead of dividing by 20 in my sim but writing it out it made more sense to divide, at least in this case. doing it for the multi attack I have to floor before diving by 100 for the random()
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-11-28 02:01:45  
clearlyamule said: »
Also for the bangles discussion if anybody has a pair it's pretty easy to test. If it wasn't cp campaign I might try.

Edit: actually now that I think about it might have to look up the enmity changes not sure everything's been reworked since all the crazy especially higher level changes they did
So far as I'm aware, the only change to damage taken enmity loss since Kaeko worked out the original formula is that enmity +/- gear now affect CE loss from damage taken.+ reducing loss, and - enhancing it. But this is completely un-quantified and untested right now.

If you avoid enmity +/- gear while taking damage, and avoid dealing dmg to generate enmity(I'm not sure the updated dmg to enmity modifiers were ever tested...) there shouldn't be any issues with testing.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-28 10:55:09  
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Also for the bangles discussion if anybody has a pair it's pretty easy to test. If it wasn't cp campaign I might try.

Edit: actually now that I think about it might have to look up the enmity changes not sure everything's been reworked since all the crazy especially higher level changes they did
So far as I'm aware, the only change to damage taken enmity loss since Kaeko worked out the original formula is that enmity +/- gear now affect CE loss from damage taken.+ reducing loss, and - enhancing it. But this is completely un-quantified and untested right now.

If you avoid enmity +/- gear while taking damage, and avoid dealing dmg to generate enmity(I'm not sure the updated dmg to enmity modifiers were ever tested...) there shouldn't be any issues with testing.
Yeah I just wasn't sure. They kept changing so much over and over and it was only somewhat retested so I forget exactly what did get changed and what didn't. I think up to 99 stayed the same or was retested... and I thought you did a little testing on higher level mobs. But this was quite awhile ago and they made several changes so might have to look some stuff up
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-11-28 12:40:31  
Most of the repeat adjustments were to dmg dealt enmity. They reduced it, twice I think?, and then a 3rd time but only for lvl 100 + mobs.

And I did try to do a bit of dmg dealt and taken enmity tests, but they tend to be more frustrating than other types of enmity tests. Especially dmg taken... So I didn't really get much in the way of reliable results.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-28 13:05:36  
Yeah iirc because of how the formulas worked 1-2 of the damaged dealt changes also resulted in cure enmity changing which did get done and I think was mostly just for 75-99. But yeah not sure a lot of data on 100+... well guess I can give it a shot after cp campaign done and then maybe get these gloves
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-11-28 13:19:49  
Just wanted to add most of the time my RNG is at -50 Enmity. So anything that augments that seems to have a really nice impact. Every little bit adds up, and I'll take everything I can get.

Utsusemi enmity loss is 25CE correct? Would be nice to figure out how the bangles work.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-28 14:57:47  
Yes utsusemi shadow loss reduces CE but wont really help nailing down bangles since it's about dmg. I wouldn't be surprised if this works more like opposite of things like burtgang and just increases the amount you lose
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-11-28 15:10:17  
I'm thinking something like cap CE on two characters and use Libra to measure relative CE after getting hit by 1k needless with/without bangles might be a reasonable test.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-11-28 15:17:53  
A better test might be to use Stoneskin/Phalanx to prevent enmity lose from taking damage. You would only need to cap CE on two characters, then get hit once on the bangles character by any attack and then use Libra to examine the relative difference.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-28 16:02:35  
Libra is cool for on the fly approximations but actually going by hate is a lot more precise. It also doesn't require having to build up much of any enmity.

Assuming a 0 dmg hit could actually cause it to reduce your CE even running around getting small but equal enmity on really low level stuff would be sufficient then cure1 till get hate back.

Testing VE would be quite not fun though and would probably just end up being a yes no if it works on that too and assuming it's the same amount if yes
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-11-28 16:46:59  
Frankly I would be extremely surprised if anything reduces Shadow lost CE loss. Pretty much every reduces CE loss item is about damage taken CE loss.

Capping CE for these kinds of tests is a huuge waste of time. 30K CE is quite a chore to reach for most jobs. PLD and RUN excluded.

All you need to do is make two characters have an equal value of CE, could even be as low as 200. Then take a damaging hit(a zero damage hit is not going to reduce CE) on one character, and quickly put back up a buff that will prevent damage. Then the character that got hit spams low CE actions until the mob turns back to them and stays.

You'll also need to account for how much CE you're losing from the actual damage taken and not from Raetic. So you'll have to run the CE loss formula for each hit you take... then subtract that form the total CE loss to get Raetic's contribution.

You can then retest based on the test results to see if the reduction is a static value or % of current CE, etc. And determine the MP to CE reduction.

Ideally you'd test this on lower level, but not level 1 mobs. you need something you can prevent damage against, but something that can still hit for more than 0.

Important test notes...

-Pulling a mob gives an additional 200CE. If you don't know this it will seriously screw with your tests.
-The vast majority of enhancing spells now have a 0 CE value. this is extremely useful. Both because you can buff freely, and because it can be used to tell if two characters have exactly the same CE. In the case of a CE tie, teh monster will stay on the character to have acted most recently. if alternating enhancing magic buffs turns the mob and leaves them there back and forth you have tied CE.
-Many spells' enmity values have changes since Kaeko's testing. And his blog was not updated. Recheck any action you're using as part of your tests on BGwiki. it is, mostly updated.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-11-28 17:18:31  
I think you are incorrect about CE loss when taking damage in regards to raetic bangles. People are reporting that you lose MP even if the damage is absorbed by Stoneskin. If that is occurring then I feel it's likely there is some CE loss occurring due to the raetic mechanic and this would be a very easy way to filter out CE loss from actual damage taken.

In regards to Libra, I think it's better to use the most convenient and quick instrumentation possible unless it's clear that you need something more precise. I would wager it's possible to figure out how the bangles work without resorting to the time consuming process of incrementing your CE 1 at a time.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-28 18:01:26  
Yes but you also lose mp from any source of dmg while only get the other proc from physical. So it might actually care. Also current gear that modifies enmity on damage taken is all about well modifying that not providing a boost. Though this also can prevent so might make some sense for it to be more like manawall.

Capping enmity is faaaaaaaaaaaaaar more time consuming then incrementing. You also don't have to literally go by 1 the entire time that's just when you get close. There are plenty of other spells to go with. Threnodies are 20 for example of a small increment. Which is a pretty fast way to get a ballpark

Problem is we don't know if precision is needed. And unless the first test proves a decrease with 0 dmg taken we wont know using a ball park method until doing at least 2 tests with taking decently different damage amounts
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-11-28 18:26:16  
The MP drain activating on 0 dmg hits is news to me. And that certainly does imply that something is happening. But Raetic has two MP related effects. The enmity, and dmg absorb chance.It would be usseful if the enmity effect does proc on 0 dmg hits though. It would allow for testing on lvl 1 mobs with as you say, excluding CE loss from actual damage. Nice. Just make sure to take the Raetic hands off after that first test hit, or it could skew the tests.

But frankly, Libra is a pretty crappy enmity testing tool. Perhaps my memory is just faulty, but I can't think of a single time it actually allowed anyone to nail down the exact properties of, well, any enmity mechanic.

When leveling out enmity between two characters, you don't just cast 1 CE spells till the mob turns. If the difference was 100 CE you'd be casting 100 times.. no thanks. You cast a 20 CE spell, or a larger one if you have reason to believe it's needed. see if the mob turns, if not cast again, and so on. once it Turns and stays, you have the second person start casting 1 CE spells till they catch up and that gives you the exact difference.

At most, you should only have to cast 1 CE spells 19 times, as the next lowest CE spells are 20 CE. And if you wanted to you could knock that down to 10 CE with enmity- gear. and make it 9 1 CE casts at most. You might at worst have to cast 1 CE spells for 1 minute or so, to achieve exact CE values.

EDIT: Also, look at the exact description of the enmity effect.

"Dec. enmity based on amount of MP consumed when receiving phys. dmg."

I don't think that getting hit for 0 counts as taking damage. But I know how SE is about descriptions, so I won't take the way it's phrased as law. Needs to be tested in any case, and just checking to see if enmity decreases at all is an extremely easy test.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-11-28 22:13:49  
I did a few simple tests using Libra just now. Enmity loss can occur when you take 0 damage, although it's not correct to say that it will. The proc simply occurs before Stoneskin/Phalanx, so you will need to use mobs that can do more than 0 damage for additional testing.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-29 00:32:01  
Damn was just about to report a zero dmg hit made me lose no mp or enmity lol
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-29 01:49:08  
So really just some prelim testing since I was an idiot and forgot about tranquil heart rounding down the 1 ce from 0 hp cures.

But 2 tests where my bangles character had casted 4 flashes so 720 ce it took recasting 3/4 to gain hate back after getting hit from another character that had casted 3/4 and both times the other character got hate back again with a threnody. So that's within 20 of a full reset each time. Given my hp was 2437 and the hits were 67 and 106 dmg which on their own should only cause 50/78 loss each it's clear bangles doing the lions share though maybe it's only a 700 loss or something weird like normal loss *mp consumed. Way too little too tell but this is potentially strong as heck

Other news had a tad over 2k mp so was consuming 100... so might be 1% loss per mp

Had a 3rd character pull in case anyone wondering

Super totally last edit. While not a surprise at all since that's just how absorbs normally work but if you proc the absorb part it counts for the emniry reduction assuming the absorb would be for more than zero (though you can't see how much if hp is full)
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-11-29 02:32:49  
I did some limited testing using Libra and Flash and 3 characters.

3 Flashes (540 CE) and getting hit for 0 damage and 47 MP took me from 100% Libra to 41% Libra or [222~226] CE
7 Flashes (1260 CE) and getting hit for 0 damage and 47 MP took me from 100% Libra to 74% Libra or [932~944] CE
3 Flashes (540 CE) and getting hit for 0 damage and 50 MP took me from 100% Libra to 38% Libra or [206-210] CE

My results would suggest something like CE lost = 6.68 * MP consumed. That's also somewhat close to what your results were (a little over 100 MP * 6.68). I forgot to record my total HP and it did change with the different MP taken values. I also have no idea if the damage take before phalanx/stoneskin matters, so I should repeat this to see. I have a lot on my plate right now so I'm not sure I'll find the time to do any detailed tests though.
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