The 6th Ministry's Secret: A Summoner's Guide (v2)

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The 6th Ministry's Secret: A Summoner's Guide (v2)
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 Shiva.Alistrianna
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By Shiva.Alistrianna 2017-11-18 00:15:30  
clearlyamule said: »
Isn't merl just BiS?

I know who you are!!!!!
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-18 01:04:30  
Shiva.Alistrianna said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Isn't merl just BiS?

I know who you are!!!!!
Definitely not a mule
 Shiva.Alistrianna
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By Shiva.Alistrianna 2017-11-18 08:47:15  
How much accuracy should I be shooting for on high end content? My current BP set has 1306 acc before food and whatever bonus it'd be receiving from Summoning Magic Skill over the cap.
EDIT: 1306 outside of Mhaura. Would be higher in Escha/Reisinjima.
 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-11-18 11:45:09  
Shiva.Alistrianna said: »
How much accuracy should I be shooting for on high end content? My current BP set has 1306 acc before food and whatever bonus it'd be receiving from Summoning Magic Skill over the cap.
EDIT: 1306 outside of Mhaura. Would be higher in Escha/Reisinjima.
the only endgame content that would involve actually gearing for pet accuracy in physical pacts would be job master fights and situations where you don't have an idris geo.

you should have an idris geo for everything, if you don't, work on that instead.
 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-11-18 11:46:10  
Asura.Frod said: »
Asura.Frod said: »
Asura.Pergatory said: »
Asura.Frod said: »
Is there any parse data on DA gear post November? i want a rough gauge as to what 1 DA is worth vs BPD.
I made a calculator sort of like Verda's a while back, and it was pretty easy to adapt for comparing the two stats. I designed it for 3-hit BPs, I'll try to update it later for n-hit.

For 3-hit BPs where fTP carries, and with my current gear, 1 BP Dmg adds 0.3846% damage and 1 DA adds 0.5848% damage.

Here are the links:
http://pastebin.com/WQ1Gn8Hs - 3-hit Physical BP
http://pastebin.com/eWurs5V1 - Magic BP

The top section is the important bit. The equipment helper just helps you total up and compare different builds quickly.

going off this data from a few pages back.
Was is a 7.69% increase in damage on melee pacts
Gridarvor is a 8.77% increase
Was+1 is 9.61%.
Nirvana without 3k TP aftermath is 15.384%
Nirvana with 3k TP DA adds an additional 23.39% damage on top of the 15.38% (assuming a 40% DA from aftermath).

This all doesn't take into account the atk, acc or +2 levels (any and all secondary stats. this is based only on DA and BPD).

This data is average damage over multiple pacts due to the way DA works.


Exact values from before~~~~

Using the calculator from perg, Convoker's +3 hands are right between a +14 bpd and a +15 bpd merlinic hands set in straight damage conversion.

Convoker's bracers will have the added bonus of +43(58) accuracy, but lack any attack.
Merlinic has the possibility of 30 acc or attack on top of the 20 base attack the gloves have.

Reviewing all this, i'd say use convokers unless you have a really really good merlinic augment, or really good helios augment.

Perfect Helios gloves > Perfect Merlinic gloves > convokers +3.
 Asura.Arico
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By Asura.Arico 2017-11-22 16:38:27  
How do you guys spam during conduit? I was spamming my macro, but I think GS was changing me to my precast set when it shouldn't because some of my volt strikes were doing 5k instead of 20k. Do people just have windower macros that do volt strike every 1.8 seconds?
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2017-11-22 16:42:26  
Turn off GS or make a rule that locks gear during conduit.

About half of the people that use smn now do the same thing. They do ***damage and some of them cant even figure out how to turn off gearswap...

There was a conversation like 5 months ago that went something like this;

Leader> all you have to do is mew
SMN> i dont have a macro for mew and my gs file wont put on bp- gear for mew
Leader> then just dont use gs
SMN> how?
leader> /facepalm
everyone in group> unload gs
SMN> What?

Just mash control 1, there's no wait required. with your bp set on.

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By clearlyamule 2017-11-22 17:29:01  
Asura.Frod said: »
Asura.Frod said: »
Asura.Frod said: »
Asura.Pergatory said: »
Asura.Frod said: »
Is there any parse data on DA gear post November? i want a rough gauge as to what 1 DA is worth vs BPD.
I made a calculator sort of like Verda's a while back, and it was pretty easy to adapt for comparing the two stats. I designed it for 3-hit BPs, I'll try to update it later for n-hit.

For 3-hit BPs where fTP carries, and with my current gear, 1 BP Dmg adds 0.3846% damage and 1 DA adds 0.5848% damage.

Here are the links:
http://pastebin.com/WQ1Gn8Hs - 3-hit Physical BP
http://pastebin.com/eWurs5V1 - Magic BP

The top section is the important bit. The equipment helper just helps you total up and compare different builds quickly.

going off this data from a few pages back.
Was is a 7.69% increase in damage on melee pacts
Gridarvor is a 8.77% increase
Was+1 is 9.61%.
Nirvana without 3k TP aftermath is 15.384%
Nirvana with 3k TP DA adds an additional 23.39% damage on top of the 15.38% (assuming a 40% DA from aftermath).

This all doesn't take into account the atk, acc or +2 levels (any and all secondary stats. this is based only on DA and BPD).

This data is average damage over multiple pacts due to the way DA works.


Exact values from before~~~~

Using the calculator from perg, Convoker's +3 hands are right between a +14 bpd and a +15 bpd merlinic hands set in straight damage conversion.

Convoker's bracers will have the added bonus of +43(58) accuracy, but lack any attack.
Merlinic has the possibility of 30 acc or attack on top of the 20 base attack the gloves have.

Reviewing all this, i'd say use convokers unless you have a really really good merlinic augment, or really good helios augment.

Perfect Helios gloves > Perfect Merlinic gloves > convokers +3.
Are we sure that calculator is correct? Based on the gear listed on that calc it seems close enough.

Not completely sure how to read that calculator besides the gear part but based numbers posted it's not even accounting for attacking thrice on nirvana also appears to not account for how oat isn't the same as DA. 1 DA adds 0.5848% damage seems really high... where's the formula being used for this?
 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-11-22 17:47:34  
While is is not totally accurate due to being more complex, a quick and easy wall to ballpark it is: 1 DA, which gets 2 chances to proc leading to a 33% dmg increase, so .02*33% = .66%.

So it doesn't seem out of line with the back of the napkin math.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-22 18:03:15  
Oh yeah with quick math it works out great... until you factor in AM3

Edit: and going thru it seems like that's what the comparisons on da are doing. Also can't understand why went thru all the trouble of figuring out the individual rates for each possible outcome if just going to add them back together (sort of). Comes out the same as just multiply rate by 2 added to the base number of hits but a lot less math
 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-11-22 19:56:06  
clearlyamule said: »
Oh yeah with quick math it works out great... until you factor in AM3

Edit: and going thru it seems like that's what the comparisons on da are doing. Also can't understand why went thru all the trouble of figuring out the individual rates for each possible outcome if just going to add them back together (sort of). Comes out the same as just multiply rate by 2 added to the base number of hits but a lot less math

The damage i listed for Nirvana up there is entirely based on the assumption that 40% DA from aftermath on player is paralleled on pet with same values. I'm not even sure if triple attack procs on pacts, but that'd push nirvana even further ahead.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-11-22 19:59:26  
AM3 isn't straight DA/TA though, it has a chance to proc before DA/TA and they only process if AM doesn't. So, with AM3 up:

40% 2hits
20% 3hits

40% normal > break down to (where X is DA)

.4 * X% 2hits (add this to the 40%..)
.4 * (100 - X)% 1hit (this is real chance of 1 hit)

then add the third round on the end, since presumably AM3 also can only proc on first 2 hits.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-22 20:20:08  
Asura.Frod said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Oh yeah with quick math it works out great... until you factor in AM3

Edit: and going thru it seems like that's what the comparisons on da are doing. Also can't understand why went thru all the trouble of figuring out the individual rates for each possible outcome if just going to add them back together (sort of). Comes out the same as just multiply rate by 2 added to the base number of hits but a lot less math

The damage i listed for Nirvana up there is entirely based on the assumption that 40% DA from aftermath on player is paralleled on pet with same values. I'm not even sure if triple attack procs on pacts, but that'd push nirvana even further ahead.
Oh you misunderstand I'm not talking about nirvana's performance at all but how Nirvana effects how effective DA gear is or I suppose in a way how they effect each other but since Nirvana is BiS even without AM3 it's more important to consider the effectiveness real DA itself not the oa2-3 from AM3
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-11-22 20:53:22  
Mythic aftermath is first hit only.
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By clearlyamule 2017-11-22 21:57:37  
So assuming it only is first hit and that it has lesser priority than DA and DA can proc twice and 40/40/20 distribution of am3 (which comes out to average of .8 extra hits) you can figure out number of hits by

=3 + 2*DA%+ (1-DA%)*.8

The calculator set showed 17 pet DA so that would come out to 4.004 hits. Adding 1 more pet DA would put that to 4.016 which is about .3% increase in number of hits and therefore dmg.

Even if we used the weird 40% OA2 and 0% OA3 thing it would be 3.672 and 3.688 a .4357% increase going from 17 to 18 DA

But yes with AM3 down closer to .6%
 Asura.Pergatory
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By Asura.Pergatory 2017-11-23 11:42:11  
Yeah I've been meaning to add an AM3 toggle for that calculator for a while now, I'll try to get around to it.

And no, it doesn't figure accuracy or attack in either, or other stats like Pet:STR. It won't tell you which piece is better, it's purely for comparing BP Damage to Pet:DA and nothing else.

I personally still use Merlinic Dastanas for that reason, but without AM3, Helios Gloves are indeed a pretty strong option. I just don't think they quite beat Merlinic, personally.

Also, there's no guarantee it's even right. My calc assumes you only get 2 chances for multi-attack on Volt Strike because that's the maximum number of procs you can get. But what if you have 3 chances to proc with a max of 2 extra hits? Then my numbers are totally off. I haven't done the metric assload of testing to completely rule out that possibility.

There's a lot of stuff that isn't known about physical rage BP mechanics. This was an easy way for me to compare 2 of the more valuable stats without bothering about what you're fighting at the time or anything like that which really complicates the math.
 Asura.Pergatory
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By Asura.Pergatory 2017-11-26 14:51:24  
Update: I added an AM3 toggle. Feel free to get the latest version of the calculator and try it out. Hopefully I didn't screw the math up, it looks right at a glance though.

https://pastebin.com/WQ1Gn8Hs (save as .html file and open)

Since there seems to be some interest in validating these things, I'll state my questionable assumptions:

1. You can only proc up to two additional hits per BP (from Papesse's testing). So for Volt Strike the max number of hits is 5.

2. You only get two chances to proc additional hits per BP. On Rush, for example, if you got 5 chances to proc additional hits then it would be really easy to consistently hit the max of 7. I can't find it now but I remember someone posting some testing based on TP return with ~40-50% Pet:DA and found a fairly even distribution of 5-hit, 6-hit, and 7-hit. This is, however, the assumption I'm least certain about.

3. AM3 is the Twice/Thrice version and can only proc on the first hit.

4. AM3 cannot proc unless the equipment DA fails to proc on the first hit.
 Asura.Aoryu
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By Asura.Aoryu 2017-11-29 15:15:31  
apologies i'm sure this is common request, but what page are current sets posted?
 Odin.Creaucent
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By Odin.Creaucent 2017-12-01 08:14:16  
So I've just come back last month and it's time to start gearing up and CPing my main from 75 era but I need some advice on staves and legs.

I have a Keraunos with BPD+8 MAB+17 and I think crit+4 which I've been using for magical BP. An Espiritus which I haven't augmented yet as I'm not sure which would be better. I was think of either path A for magical, path B for buffs and debuffing or path D for physical. I also have a half augmented Gridarvor which I use for my perp set but ive also seen that it's better for Volt Strike?

As for legs I uses a max enticer's pants for both magical and physical atm. I don't have Apogee path D legs yet but would Helios augmented with BPD, att and DA be a good stand in?

I've also gone path A on apogee head, hands and feet would they be a good stand in for physical BP until I get anything better and what would be better?
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 Quetzalcoatl.Khajit
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By Quetzalcoatl.Khajit 2017-12-01 08:48:16  
A great deal of the information you're asking for is directly above your post with a bp damage calculator and everything.
 Odin.Creaucent
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By Odin.Creaucent 2017-12-01 09:26:20  
Quetzalcoatl.Khajit said: »
A great deal of the information you're asking for is directly above your post with a bp damage calculator and everything.

Oh ok so according to that calc then since theres only BPD and DA that is able to be added i should be looking for gear that has both on for physical BP rage? so that means full helios set and a Was is BIS without a Nirvana?
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-12-01 09:52:52  
Odin.Creaucent said: »
it's time to start gearing up and CPing my main from 75 era
you mean, time to jump on the bandwagon? why hide it?

Odin.Creaucent said: »
Oh ok so according to that calc then since theres only BPD and DA that is able to be added i should be looking for gear that has both on for physical BP rage? so that means full helios set and a Was is BIS without a Nirvana?
Obviously amounts matter.. some pieces of apogee+1 will win over helios depending on your other gear. Gridarvor will essentially always be better than Was, and can be better than Was+1 if accuracy is uncapped. Merlinic hands beat both apogee and helios.
 Odin.Creaucent
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By Odin.Creaucent 2017-12-01 09:56:33  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Odin.Creaucent said: »
it's time to start gearing up and CPing my main from 75 era
you mean, time to jump on the bandwagon? why hide it?

Not really ive been playing smn since about 2008 so its hardly jumping on the bandwagon i just havent really played XI for a few years.
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By eliroo 2017-12-01 09:59:29  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
you mean, time to jump on the bandwagon? why hide it?

Would be really crazy if people actually enjoyed and wanted to play SMN.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2017-12-01 12:30:36  
eliroo said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
you mean, time to jump on the bandwagon? why hide it?

Would be really crazy if people actually enjoyed and wanted to play SMN.

It would also be a lie.
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By Pankas 2017-12-07 05:32:51  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
eliroo said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
you mean, time to jump on the bandwagon? why hide it?

Would be really crazy if people actually enjoyed and wanted to play SMN.

It would also be a lie.

Well, i do enjoy smn quite alot, when again, i only lvled the jobs i enjoy playing...
 Asura.Pergatory
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By Asura.Pergatory 2017-12-07 10:18:45  
You heard Eiryl, nobody likes playing the job so you must be lying and we're all here playing an OP job because of our massive insecurity and inability to beat content through normal methods.
[+]
 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-12-07 13:04:25  
Asura.Pergatory said: »
You heard Eiryl, nobody likes playing the job so you must be lying and we're all here playing an OP job because of our massive insecurity and inability to beat content through normal methods.
SMM BURN ALL THE THINGS.
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By Tarage 2017-12-07 15:44:29  
Yes, clearly. I mean, there's no other explanation for my having only leveled and geared that one job for years. I mean gosh, I jumped on the bandwagon way back when the game launched and SMN was only treated like a gimp WHM because I knew, one day, it would be the most OP job in your eyes. Yes, the years of not getting party invites, of being told to level a 'useful' job, of not even being able to have my Avatar out for a hot second before running out of MP.

Please, tell me how I'm a bandwagoner. About how I don't enjoy the job.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2017-12-07 17:55:40  
Keep feeding the troll ppl
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