99 - Mandau (55dmg) Vs Izhiikoh (108dmg)

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2010-06-21
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フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Thief » 99 - Mandau (55dmg) vs Izhiikoh (108dmg)
99 - Mandau (55dmg) vs Izhiikoh (108dmg)
 Carbuncle.Sisko
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By Carbuncle.Sisko 2015-01-07 09:15:26  
The main things about AC :

1) rudra's additionals hits are more or less normal swings. So the delay from the ja equals more or less the white damage you would have make without it. Normal hits gives however much more TP than additional WS hits.


2) quadruple attack you may get, prevents your gear to proc the "triple attack damage+" So, triple or quadruple gives again more or less the same results.

3) has a 5 minute recast. (You use it once every 8-15 WS)

In my opinion, it won't change much to have this merited or not.

It was good for Evisceration ftp which carries through additional hits, but it is no longer requiered.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-07 09:33:47  
I can't wait for this argument to happen. What ever you do don't listen to Sisko, Assassin's charge is the best merit ever.

Then to re-live the same *** argument on page 3, then again on page 5. God forbid someone actually look for an answer instead of asking it for the 9th time.
 Quetzalcoatl.Waffless
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By Quetzalcoatl.Waffless 2015-01-07 09:35:40  
Carbuncle.Sisko said: »
The main things about AC :

1) rudra's additionals hits are more or less normal swings. So the delay from the ja equals more or less the white damage you would have make without it. Normal hits gives however much more TP than additional WS hits.


2) quadruple attack you may get, prevents your gear to proc the "triple attack damage+" So, triple or quadruple gives again more or less the same results.

3) has a 5 minute recast. (You use it once every 8-15 WS)

In my opinion, it won't change much to have this merited or not.

It was good for Evisceration ftp which carries through additional hits, but it is no longer requiered.


This pretty much sums it up nicely. I still have 5/5 AC because I used it with evis(and sometimes mercy) and am never on thf anymore, and am still debating on whether ambush is worth it or not. If you're pretty much spamming rudra's then it's a waste of merits.
 Cerberus.Tidis
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2015-01-07 09:40:02  
Carbuncle.Sisko said: »
The main things about AC :

1) rudra's additionals hits are more or less normal swings. So the delay from the ja equals more or less the white damage you would have make without it. Normal hits gives however much more TP than additional WS hits.


2) quadruple attack you may get, prevents your gear to proc the "triple attack damage+" So, triple or quadruple gives again more or less the same results.

3) has a 5 minute recast. (You use it once every 8-15 WS)

In my opinion, it won't change much to have this merited or not.

It was good for Evisceration ftp which carries through additional hits, but it is no longer requiered.
Thanks Sisko for explaining, heaven forbid we deal with Valli's sarcasm on page 3 and then again on page 5.
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 Asura.Solacia
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By Asura.Solacia 2015-01-07 10:24:22  
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
I can't wait for this argument to happen. What ever you do don't listen to Sisko, Assassin's charge is the best merit ever.

Then to re-live the same *** argument on page 3, then again on page 5. God forbid someone actually look for an answer instead of asking it for the 9th time.

It's a good thing you didn't waste your time arguing with everyone instead of just taking 30 seconds to explain it again, then.
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 Sylph.Jeanpaul
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2015-01-07 12:15:28  
Carbuncle.Sisko said: »
2) quadruple attack you may get, prevents your gear to proc the "triple attack damage+" So, triple or quadruple gives again more or less the same results.
On top of this, because Evisceration is already 6 hits (5 main + 1 offhand), the triple attack alone lets you reach the 8 hit cap, making the extra merits even more of a waste.
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 Lakshmi.Kyosukerob
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By Lakshmi.Kyosukerob 2015-01-12 11:56:05  
I suppose it depends on your playstyle and preference. I have Feint 5/5, Aura Steal 1/5 (Dyna proc if I ever use), and Ambush 4/5. Ambush has a +1% triple attack rate as long as you wear relic body, which is a great TP piece without this buff. And yes I'm squishy enough so I won't be using Skadi +1. It's fulltime when farming salvage on Khimairas and other NMs that don't turn, including chariots. In AAs I just sit behind NMs and get the extra 12 acc and 4 triple. On D I admit I often have to swap out relic for AF body depending. Why would someone get AC? Stacking it on TA can pin more hate on the PLD. I'd imagine that during DM2 it'd play more of a role with being able to boost the PLD's hate at start when certain JAs aren't ready. For example Sentinel + Divine Emblem > Flash I have been told can cap hate depending on sets. Here it's certainly a nice thing to have but with a 5min recast it comes into play 1/5 TAs you perform, more perhaps depending on merits. In VD fights you're stacking acc so relic body is out. The acc is nice in this situation but with bouncing hate... And AC in here is nice I suppose as a guaranteed boost to ws dmg is helpful (so long as you can stack it properly). However I admit to never having done VD and having little desire to do so.
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-01-12 12:13:56  
Carbuncle.Sisko said: »
1) rudra's additionals hits are more or less normal swings. So the delay from the ja equals more or less the white damage you would have make without it. Normal hits gives however much more TP than additional WS hits.


2) quadruple attack you may get, prevents your gear to proc the "triple attack damage+" So, triple or quadruple gives again more or less the same results.

In both of those points, you need to remove the 'or less' part because it is definitely more in both cases.
 Bahamut.Gorion
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By Bahamut.Gorion 2015-01-12 12:40:15  
Why would you not 5/5 feint?. are you forgetting the high acc needed for some of the new content? also increase the level of TH?
I think people forget their rolls in this game. ya, of course you want to do more damage but i wouldn't sacrifice everyone else's to say i won a parse on thf. Every Melee benefits from Feint. As far as i'm concerned it's a no brainer
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 Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2015-01-12 12:43:16  
Basically, if you have a Mandau, drop it, it's worthless, inventory -1, and 100% useless. If you don't have a Vajra the only dagger combo in any situation worth using Izhiikoh/Atoyac.

If you are a non-Vajra THF and don't use those two daggers you're either HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE or gay, or assuming the worst case scenario, possibly a combination of the two.

Case closed.
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-01-12 12:47:15  
Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
*rubs hands together* That's what I was waiting for, started to get worried it wasn't gonna happen.

Now someone come in here and agree and Ihina, and let's get this show in full swing.

I'm sure whatever discussion comes from it will be more productive if you're not a part of it. Maybe if you behaved like an adult and not instantly call people 'stupid' for disagreeing with you, you'll know that sometimes, people can have disagreements and talk it out without devolving into fecal throwing animals.
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 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2015-01-12 13:12:25  
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »
Basically, if you have a Mandau, drop it, it's worthless, inventory -1, and 100% useless.

This was true for the Vajra a number of years ago.

I know you're trying to push a point that is indeed true, but you don't have to be so extreme about it.
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By charlo999 2015-01-12 13:16:22  
Lakshmi.Kyosukerob said: »
Why would someone get AC? Stacking it on TA can pin more hate on the PLD.

Edit: mixed up hate tranfer with AGI bonus.
talking of the 'triple attack damage bonus+' I've asked before if it even transfers to WS. It was proven in the war forums ages ago that the DA damage plus bonus didn't. Unless the tests were against low level mobs for testing and the + damage only adds to the def/Att values that were already capped. Idk. I'd like to see it verified.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-12 13:19:24  
I'm more than content to just watch this failboat sail on. Just needs a little fanning.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2015-01-12 13:19:25  
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »
Basically, if you have a Mandau, drop it, it's worthless, inventory -1, and 100% useless.

This was true for the Vajra a number of years ago.

I know you're trying to push a point that is indeed true, but you don't have to be so extreme about it.

I apologize, my lack of anger management therapy has once again gotten the better of me.

Woosah.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2015-01-12 13:27:34  
Bahamut.Gorion said: »
Why would you not 5/5 feint?. are you forgetting the high acc needed for some of the new content? also increase the level of TH?
I think people forget their rolls in this game. ya, of course you want to do more damage but i wouldn't sacrifice everyone else's to say i won a parse on thf. Every Melee benefits from Feint. As far as i'm concerned it's a no brainer

The additional -evasion it can give isn't really needed given that the initial value should cap anyone- and if it doesn't, they probably shouldn't be fighting the thing in the first place.

That said, it's true that none of the merits (aside from the first Feint merit) are that great so it's not a bad idea to throw in more for the increased chance at a TH proc.

Quote:
If you don't have a Vajra the only dagger combo in any situation worth using Izhiikoh/Atoyac.

That's not really true.
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By NeboJones 2015-01-12 13:33:14  
Siren.Kyte said: »
The additional -evasion it can give isn't really needed given that the initial value should cap anyone- and if it doesn't, they probably shouldn't be fighting the thing in the first place.

Here's the thing. The value of the evasion down from Feint degrades over time from very potent, to pretty weak by the end of the 30 seconds. The extra evasion down from merits/AF2 pants is more beneficial for that period at the end of duration where the effect is weaker.

More merits would potentially get you more milage out of a "feint is up" TP set on evasive conent.
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By nerz 2015-01-12 19:36:29  
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »
Basically, if you have a Mandau, drop it, it's worthless, inventory -1, and 100% useless. If you don't have a Vajra the only dagger combo in any situation worth using Izhiikoh/Atoyac.

If you are a non-Vajra THF and don't use those two daggers you're either HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE or gay, or assuming the worst case scenario, possibly a combination of the two.

Case closed.


Speaking of HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE...you offhand Atoyac on 130+ content?
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 Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2015-01-12 19:42:58  
nerz said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »
Basically, if you have a Mandau, drop it, it's worthless, inventory -1, and 100% useless. If you don't have a Vajra the only dagger combo in any situation worth using Izhiikoh/Atoyac.

If you are a non-Vajra THF and don't use those two daggers you're either HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE or gay, or assuming the worst case scenario, possibly a combination of the two.

Case closed.


Speaking of HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE...you offhand Atoyac on 130+ content?

I do whatever FFXIAH tells me to do!
 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2015-01-12 20:34:01  
Cerberus.Tidis said: »
Carbuncle.Sisko said: »
The main things about AC :

1) rudra's additionals hits are more or less normal swings. So the delay from the ja equals more or less the white damage you would have make without it. Normal hits gives however much more TP than additional WS hits.


2) quadruple attack you may get, prevents your gear to proc the "triple attack damage+" So, triple or quadruple gives again more or less the same results.

3) has a 5 minute recast. (You use it once every 8-15 WS)

In my opinion, it won't change much to have this merited or not.

It was good for Evisceration ftp which carries through additional hits, but it is no longer requiered.
Thanks Sisko for explaining, heaven forbid we deal with Valli's sarcasm on page 3 and then again on page 5.

There TA and SA recast to alternate 2000 TP rudra's is aruably better than AC depending on where and what you use THF on (Different cataogories I know) So if you are standing behind a mob alot to SA, the Additional 5% TA rate is nice from 5/5 ambush and I guess 5/5 Feint but agains personal preference.
 Siren.Sieha
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By Siren.Sieha 2015-01-12 21:08:01  
wow really. this thread is awesome.
 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2015-01-12 21:11:33  
My friend, says that 5/5 Assassin's charge is the best merit, and he outparses koga Sams. I'm inclined to believe what I see him do instead of what math nerds tell me.

It feels like the damage added from charge far outweighs the evasion from feint, since we're always capped on accuracy.

When you see someone beating mythic Sams, they can't possibly be wrong. If he has assassins charge then it's the right way to go.
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