New Instruments Next Update? Or, Upgrades?

Very true ^^

I called you a hypocrite, not because you said "2-song bards are gimp" but because you said (paraphrased) "bard w/o Daurdabla doesn't take his job seriously" which implies "R/E/M or gtfo" to everyone who has bard without Daurdabla. I'm sure you yourself have jobs that you take seriously but don't have R/E/M for. Of course, "take seriously" is really a matter of perspective I guess, and thinking back on it, "hypocrite" maybe wasn't the most tactful word to use, but I thought it was nicer than saying "ignorant."


Cureskin wasn't the word I meant to use. I was referring to whatever it's called from whm getting mp back when using AF3+2 legs. I don't really play whm so not terribly familiar with that vernacular.

Are you serious? You quote me talking about landing song debuffs and then argue that diaga is a critical spell for us to use during HM fight. The two aren't even related. Also, if your group is depending on you solely for removing shadows, they are dumb. Your whm should be involved in casting diaga as well so that if you're in the middle of re-singing, they can still get it off, and vice versa for if they're in the middle of casting. However diaga still has nothing to do with magic accuracy gear or really any gear. It's fast enough and recasts fast enough as is.

Oh no! So horrible!
1) Shell doesn't do ***
2) Haste doesn't do ***
3) Aquaveil doesn't do ***
4) Corsair has dark shot if you're damage on EV is sucking from protect. Dispel itself may also be an option if available.


Teach your rangers how to use Overkill/Decoy Shot/etc to burn her down post-50%

Teach your rangers to be better with shadowbind (ffs quit taking bandwagon rangers)

wut? Yeah like that's necessary, lol

Sleepga - poison potion
Meteor - run out of range because you had poison potion so sleepga did nothing but buy you time to get out of range
-ga spells - buying you time isn't necessary, whm should assist cure for stoneskin while the target should be in MDT gear

The rest of your crap doesn't pertain to what I said about AA fights. For 18-man Delve, the other, more appropriately geared bard can handle debuffs. At least your LS can still run Delve because you happen to have BRD there to sing buffs. Soon, you will have a gimp bard that can sing an additional buff.

Just so we're clear, nowhere did I say that a well-geared bard wasn't valuable. I said there are a LOT of situations where the only thing NECESSARY from bards are their buffs.

I have Daurdabla. I don't have Ghorn yet. I have good magic accuracy gear. I have ***for cure potency/casting gear. I have pretty good fast-cast gear. I don't think I take bard all that seriously, but I do have it available and up to snuff well enough to be valuable. Before my Daurdabla, my LS had 3 Daurdabla/Ghorn members. Those 3 aren't on 24/7, so when my bard is needed, I have it. We are still successful on AA fights when I'm the only bard because my debuffs aren't necessary for the win. We are still successful on Divine Might and 18-man Delve because my bard isn't necessary for debuffs (other, bard handles them).

If you want to call that getting carried by my groups, by all means, call it what you want. I'm just glad that when we go to form a group or alliance for something, if bard buffs are needed, my bard can suffice. If they are already covered, good, I can go on the appropriate DD job that I take more seriously anyway.

You're right, but being a bad or good player and having bad gear means you should keep out of high-tier events until your gear is good. At this point in the game any bard trying to do endgame (Which might only be considered New Delve/DM/VDAA at this point, with as easy as everything else is) should have minimum 3 songs with +3 instruments.

This dagger design is AWESOME.

The best looking dagger since Izhiikoh, and even more beautiful.

Do want it.

The harp is ugly. I prefer the pink one.

Your long post basically is telling me that you agree that the bard can do jack ***but buffing if everyone else in your group is spot on. i.e. the bard is carried.

I totally agree on that. But that doesn't make you a good bard.

In the contrary, I can take pretty bad whms in too if my brd/cor/geo doesn't suck. To be honest I'm not really sure what is your point apart from attacking whatever i write anymore. lol

The rest is in spoiler because I feel like a retard arguing like this. But I do feel like answering it to make you realise what you are saying. I apologise on being borderline rude here but you aren't being exactly respectful either. ^_^

That's another argument then in that case. Because then you would have to differentiate what is good gear, and what is bad gear. Though some are more obvious then others, it doesn't change the statement I made.

I don't even think it's another argument, just a side-point to what you're saying. I also think it's common sense. Would you take a Headlong Belt monk to Wopket? I wouldn't.

What are you arguing then if you don't understand my point? I even re-quoted myself to help you understand. My point was that with the exception of song buffs, the rest isn't necessary.

You say bard can just buff if everyone else in your group is spot on. I agree. That's why I said the other stuff isn't necessary. We all play with players that aren't perfect, and in those situations, having the extra gear to make use of song debuffs and /whm can make up for mistakes.

On AA fights, I haven't found that to be necessary. I take my "gimp" bard and all I'm required to do is keep songs up. We win and everyone is happy. I can land debuffs, but from my experience, it's not my debuffs that make the difference. I've done AA's and not landed my debuffs and we still won. That's why I said it's not necessary. That's why I said I don't give a crap if my bard is landing debuffs in AA fights as long as he/she is keeping songs up.

Now, there are other fights outside AA's where debuffs are more important. You mentioned some in your previous post. I'm not arguing that. I feel like a broken record now, but hopefully I've driven the point home. If you want to argue more with me, don't pick apart statements I made out of context and derive your own argument. Stay in the context of the point I was making. If you don't understand the point I was making, just ask for clarification. These are just basic rules to any sensible argument.

It's not going to make sense for us to argue if my arguments are attacking apples and your arguments are defending oranges.

Getting back to apples verse apples:

You've made a lot of good points in this thread. I'll just quote what you said that was narrow minded.


You basically said "gear = skill." You just used different words: "gimp" referring to gear, and "mentality" referring to skill.

You were wrong.

Argument & Debate 101

But for the sake of the topic I understand and like what SE is doing. At the end of the day no matter what they do there will always be room to criticize or argue what they do. I say just do YOU and enjoy what they are doing for us, while theyre doing it.

Interesting discussion. My 2 cents- for bard, skill only starts to matter after getting Daurdabla/+3 instruments at a minimum, arguably you want Ghorn too for the bonus to Scherzo. If you're not at that point, skill means basically nothing in the context of in-game events. Want to play bard? Plan on building an Empy harp (until next update, at least). Just like people planning on playing paladin should build Ochain and Aegis. That's the bar for playing those jobs in any content that matters.

As far as bard being a simple job, I'm not buying that anymore. As a WHM I definitely notice the difference between playing with our LS BRDs who are focused on the job, and playing with pickup BRDs who are generally sub par. A good bard lands enfeebles, does support, -na's, Haste, and just generally fills in the gaps. When you have content on farm, like old Delve, then who cares? For tackling harder stuff, good bards are crucial.

Winning something doesn't mean you are a good player of the job. It doesn't mean you are skilled at the job. It doesn't mean you have the adequate gear for the job in that content. Other people covered you is all that is saying. There is no skill in putting songs up, and like the poster above says, I think skill don't get into play without adequate gear. It's like on DD, you can be all skilled as you like, but if your gear suck so bad that you're at 20% accuracy, you still suck. You really can't call yourself a good player without having both skill and adequate gear.

Let me stress again, I don't mean gear= skill. But a skilled player would not offer their job to a content without being adequately geared for it. In a ls event where your leader go idc, we got a rem bard to cover you, we just need extra buffs is of course a different matter.

Yes, quoting my first post disregarding any further elaborations I made is totally taking my view in context and picking out words like gimp and mentality doesn't make you focusing on minor points despite how many times I emphasise what I am trying to say.

Fair enough. I am wrong in a debate of opinions which in my opinion has no right or wrong, but hey, I don't go about calling people hypocrites , ignorant or tell them to get a life when I try to express my point of view.

You win.

(prev post deleted because cell phone decided to submit before I'm done!)

This is still going on?

Assuming both brds are the same skil - a Better geared BRD > than a Worse geared BRD. FACT

Its like "I want to kill SomethingI will use this butter knife, instead of the Great Katana hanging over my mantle piece".

The butter knife can get the job done, but a Katana would do it oh so better.

After reading this post and seeing a good bard (4 songs + Ghorn) in action I decided to get a Ghorn and after that bring my 3 song to a 4 song bard.

who?

No one is arguing that a skilled top geared brd isn't better. The argument is that you don't have to be Top geared to play the job right(Function properly). Ghorn/Pink harp arn't going to make or break weather or not you can land debuffs(Yes I know they add skill but having to cast the song one extra time to land it isn't going to end anything). Yes you are going to need other gear but honestly you can get everything else without any real effort(Time). Can easily get AF/Relic Reforge without even trying along with other gear from different content. (Without even trying meaning Sparks get you papers/When you do a SKCNM run you usually end up with enough paper to craft multiple jobs for the slot) Login campaigns can complete other sets or crafting items needed. Instruments easily gotten while doing other things. My whole point being a functional brd with little to no effort instead of farming for hours for a job most playing don't even like to play they simply do it to "Fill the gap".

And to end my point and posting on this topic I will simply say I am glad they are adding things to make more options for bards. I get sick of shouting for hours to fill spots in groups. Hopefully more options will me more people picking up the job and maybe even lead to them enjoying it.

That's the big "if," though, isn't it?

I've spent a lot of time in MMOs with forum posters who spend a considerable amount of time talking about how good they are and how good their gear is and how little patience they have for the unskilled, the lazy, or people with real issues pressing on their time. And virtually every single one of them has been "ok" at best. Across both FFXI and WoW, I've never been particularly impressed by those who brag and whinge and demand and insist on forums.

Which isn't to say every forum poster is mediocre, just that the really excellent ones shut the hell up. And, for the record, although I neither brag nor worry myself overmuch about the competence of those I play with, I have always considered myself to be a merely "ok" player, largely owing to my disinterest in pursuing the top tier of gear.

Then again, everyone who has played with me has disagreed that I'm middle-of-the-road. /shrug Can't take my word on that, though.

And its not hard to get a 90 Empyrean either for the record.

I'd always say a 2 song BRD is average - assuming they perform their Duties- because I never assume idiots in my runs.

a 3 song BRD that performs their duties is good.

A 4 song BRD doing their duties with a relic is a GREAT BRD.

A 4 song BRD with relic, doing duties with a good Macc set is BRD I would always take over a 2 song, that's the point Spirachub is making.

An idiot with great gear is still an idiot.

You fobby lol

Is Mini chop liver? I see how it is Amy

So do the two harps stack?

No.

Well then.

As well, it should be noted that a person who dedicates themselves to a job should put in the work to attain their highest equipment to a point. This does not limit itself to 119 REM or delve weapons, but also Artifact +1, Relic +1, and any situational gear. I would, should, and do expect anyone who wishes to participate in the highest of content to have the highest attainable equipment for the job they intend to bring. The only response a player should provide as to why they do not have their "A" gear is "I'm still working on it, its at x% completion." It sounds elitist, and it is, but doing the highest content requires the work necessary to keep the party/alliance at its peak. And yes: equipment is only part of the bigger pie, and the highest equipment won't make an idiot a better player... its why I require their player skill at the level I require their gear.

It should be noted that having 2 songs is the bare minimum. It can't be average if it's also the lowest you can go.

I was checking this forum to see if there was any word on JSE Harp stacking with Dardar (Sadly, it does not... Dreams of 6-Song Madness fading away~) and I happen to find this statement. I don't know if people love or hate this, but I completely agree with this statement 100% xD I don't think a career WAR should mandate to have a Conqueror or 119 Ukon mind you because the degree of dedication to achieve those is rather high for not very impressive impacts. But full 119 Relic/AF Gear? Yes. and Optimal sets for DDs and Mages alike? Yes. My apologies for the derail, I just really liked this particular post xD