The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-11 20:10:56  
Normally would be Flamma +2 head, HQ Argosy Body / Hands / Legs and WAR AF+3 feet.
 Fenrir.Ramzus
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-10-11 20:11:05  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
Flamma +2 supposedly gave +16 stats after 3 pieces, meaning the progression should be 0/8/16/24/32/40. If it doesn't then disregard my post

That's not how set bonus's work.

The bonus from the first piece is actually the combination of both the pieces.

Example Argosy

0/4/2/2/2 = 10 total

Each piece gives +2, but you only get credit from the first two. So far the only person I know that has 2 of the Flamma +2 gets +8 STR/VIT/DEX when having them both on, thus +4 each.

Should be
0/8/4/4/4 = 20 for five pieces (add another rank for ring).

I'm aware how set bonuses work. Not every set has the same progression bud
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-11 20:15:16  
Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
Flamma +2 supposedly gave +16 stats after 3 pieces, meaning the progression should be 0/8/16/24/32/40. If it doesn't then disregard my post

That's not how set bonus's work.

The bonus from the first piece is actually the combination of both the pieces.

Example Argosy

0/4/2/2/2 = 10 total

Each piece gives +2, but you only get credit from the first two. So far the only person I know that has 2 of the Flamma +2 gets +8 STR/VIT/DEX when having them both on, thus +4 each.

Should be
0/8/4/4/4 = 20 for five pieces (add another rank for ring).

I'm aware how set bonuses work. Not every set has the same progression bud

Outside of Refresh / Regen they've followed that pattern. Not to say SE didn't create a new one, for whatever reason, but I won't make any assumptions until more information is available. And the last people you should be listening to are the "Ukon is the best cause AM3" and "Resolution does most of it's damage on the first hit so WSD is important" crowd.
 Fenrir.Ramzus
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-10-11 20:19:16  
I have no reason to believe he's lying, hence why I said until another source can confirm otherwise I'm going to stick to 0/8/16/24/32/40 for the piece-by-piece analysis.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-11 20:22:08  
Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
I have no reason to believe he's lying, hence why I said until another source can confirm otherwise I'm going to stick to 0/8/16/24/32/40 for the piece-by-piece analysis.

I have several that he might be mistaken or just guessing. I don't have them yet cause work, so I can't confirm, and a reliable source who did complete said otherwise, so going to check when something more then a random comment is made. Btw that's one of the "use WSD for resolution" crew your trusting. Anyhow we'll all know for sure in a day or two so no reason to speculate or fuss.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-10-11 20:33:59  
Perhaps I'm wrong but isn't that how every ambuscade set works? Subtle Blow is 0/5/10/15/20/25, Refresh is 0/1/2/3/4/5, etc.
[+]
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-11 22:36:25  
Ok just got all 20 fibers and upgraded Head and Feet. It's indeed +8 per piece after the first, so interesting choices. Puts it very close to HQ Argosy Body / Legs though the lack of MA holds it back on a WS that is highly effected by MA, and attack shouldn't be entirely forgotten due to Reso's -15% attack penalty. Need to keep that in mind if you don't have a bolstered Idris frailty going on.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-10-11 22:48:59  
Here's a difference matrix (credit Ramzus) for different options.



Attack has been left out it seems. 3/5 Argosys +1 looks like the ideal set to me for attack capped situations.
 Fenrir.Ramzus
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-10-11 23:13:41  
yea i left attack out for obvious reasons since there isn't an attack comparison between items as flamma is at 0. argosy is still gonna win without capped attack by a lot
 Odin.Thedrake
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By Odin.Thedrake 2017-10-11 23:23:31  
I am sure this has been asked before but couldnt find it in search so I apologize.

But what is the recommended Resolution set if you cant afford dishing out for HQ Argosy? NQ still good enough for head/body/hands/legs or would they be edged out by other options?
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By Sylph.Oraen 2017-10-11 23:29:45  
People are talking about replacements for HQ Argosy right now. Last page and this page. Just a few posts above you. Flamma +2 is great.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-11 23:34:29  
Ok running some interesting comparisons with WAR AF +3 vs Flamma +2 feet with the Flamma +2 head present.

Using Rag just because it's kinda standard. Resolution set vs a 250 VIT (had to pick something kinda realistic). Zero buffs standing inside Nashmu as /SAM. This represents the base bottom, where STR is worth the most so as to be conservative.
Code
WAR AF +3 feet
304 DMG
369 STR = +313DMG
+30 fSTR
+25 DEX WSC
672 Total BDMG
1633 Atk
1181 Acc

Flamma +2 Feet
304 DMG
384 STR = +326DMG
+34 fSTR
+27 DEX WSC
691 Total BDMG
1599
1174 Acc


So the extra STR means 2.8% higher BDMG, which typically translates into raw damage if all other things are equal.

The MA values are
Code
WAR AF+3 Feet
3% QA
5% TA
72% DA

Flamma +2 Feet
3% QA
5% TA
69% DA


Later I'll figure out the exact value that 3% DA has to Resolutions damage. One DA is worth ~20% more damage and you get two rolls, so I would place the 3% DA worth about 3% but would need to do dig deeper to get the exact percentage.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-11 23:37:16  
Odin.Thedrake said: »
I am sure this has been asked before but couldnt find it in search so I apologize.

But what is the recommended Resolution set if you cant afford dishing out for HQ Argosy? NQ still good enough for head/body/hands/legs or would they be edged out by other options?


If we toss HQ argosy out, then your looking at Flamma +2 head definitely, well augmented valorous Hands / Body, well augmented Odyssean legs, WAR AF+3 feet or possibly Flamma +2 feet. If you don't want to spin the wheel on random augments then Flamma +2 Body / Hands / Legs will serve though it has no attack or Multi-Attack.
 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2017-10-12 05:09:01  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Ok running some interesting comparisons with WAR AF +3 vs Flamma +2 feet with the Flamma +2 head present.

Using Rag just because it's kinda standard. Resolution set vs a 250 VIT (had to pick something kinda realistic). Zero buffs standing inside Nashmu as /SAM. This represents the base bottom, where STR is worth the most so as to be conservative.
Code
WAR AF +3 feet
304 DMG
369 STR = +313DMG
+30 fSTR
+25 DEX WSC
672 Total BDMG
1633 Atk
1181 Acc

Flamma +2 Feet
304 DMG
384 STR = +326DMG
+34 fSTR
+27 DEX WSC
691 Total BDMG
1599
1174 Acc


So the extra STR means 2.8% higher BDMG, which typically translates into raw damage if all other things are equal.

The MA values are
Code
WAR AF+3 Feet
3% QA
5% TA
72% DA

Flamma +2 Feet
3% QA
5% TA
69% DA


Later I'll figure out the exact value that 3% DA has to Resolutions damage. One DA is worth ~20% more damage and you get two rolls, so I would place the 3% DA worth about 3% but would need to do dig deeper to get the exact percentage.

Still a nice chunk of attack in favour of AF+3 and with reso's attack penalty I cant see flamma winning in many situations (outside capped attack with high MA ws sets where the extra DA adds very little chance of procs).
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By geigei 2017-10-12 06:53:59  
Which are those instances where att is capped? i'm talking WoC or higher.

Flamma head/feet/ring = basically trading almost 100att for 7 str and 6stp? acc and multi are pretty much equal.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-12 07:41:24  
Shiva.Flowen said: »
Still a nice chunk of attack in favour of AF+3 and with reso's attack penalty I cant see flamma winning in many situations (outside capped attack with high MA ws sets where the extra DA adds very little chance of procs).

I was trying to be as favorable towards Flamma +2 feet as I could while still being within reason. At best they are equal, in most situations they are worse.

geigei said: »
Flamma head/feet/ring = basically trading almost 100att for 7 str and 6stp? acc and multi are pretty much equal.

That's ~100 base attack, before all the percentage modifiers. With just berserk up that 100 is worth 130 attack, value goes up as your buffed with more percentage buffs. And it's not equal because AF +3 feet have 9 DA while Flamma +2 only have 6 DA and the trade off involves 15 STR. The 6 Store TP is on your WS and wouldn't change much of anything, except ~maybe~ letting you shave off 1~2 Store TP in your TP set. I had to convert body and legs HQ Argosy pieces to Path D to get enough Store TP on WS to shave off 3~4 Store TP in TP sets (someone on here recommended that).

The above scenario was done with zero buffs or zone enhancements, meaning no vorseals, food, hasso or boost's. As you pile on more STR your WSC goes up and devalues that +15, thus that 2.8% higher damage values starts going down.

Now lets add Hasso (+7), Sublime Sushi (+6), Boost-STR (+25) and Vorseals with blessing (+60). That's 98 extra STR for.
Code
WAR AF +3 Feet
766 Total BDMG
Flamma +2 Feet
781 Total BDMG


Now we have a difference of ~1.9%, it's lost ~45% of it's value. That 3% DA doesn't lose it's value unless you pile on more multi-attack and fighters roll is the only way to do it and that roll is largely wasted on a WAR who is already geared to the teeth with Multi-Attack. And base attack isn't something that should be ignored on a WS with a 15% penalty. Also remember the Regal Ring adds +15 accuracy when your pairing it with an AF item, so switching it out for Flamma ring and Flamma ring is only 8 STR not the 10 from Regal so your missing another 2.

The real surprise here is how much Flamma +2 came stat wise (while ignoring non-negligible attack) to AF +3 feet. This is a huge upgrade for every other job and a nice boost to WAR's without the +3 feet. The Ring is an interesting stand in for those without Regal Ring.
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By geigei 2017-10-12 07:49:56  
I was refering to flamma head+feet vs argosy+af for reso, losing QA for TA and so on. I think is pretty good for anyone w/o hq argosy/af3/niqmadu, and basically free.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-12 07:53:22  
geigei said: »
I was refering to flamma head+feet vs argosy+af for reso, losing QA for TA and so on. I think is pretty good for anyone w/o hq argosy/af3/niqmadu, and basically free.

Why are you comparing Flamma +2 head vs HQ Argosy? Flamma +2 head absolutely crush's it. And just because your wearing Flamma +2 head doesn't mean you need to wear the feet, it's not like they explode if you separate them. The only comparison is Flamma +2 feet vs WAR AF +3 feet and possibly throwing in the Flamma ring vs Regal due to the set bonus differences.
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By geigei 2017-10-12 07:56:48  
I thought head only is lower str.
 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2017-10-12 08:10:40  
Asura.Saevel said: »
I was trying to be as favorable towards Flamma +2 feet as I could while still being within reason. At best they are equal, in most situations they are worse.

I did think it seemed a bit generalised/situational for one of your posts :) Yeah for gear that basically comes free whilst gil farming, it's a bit too close to other options!
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-12 08:14:36  
geigei said: »
I thought head only is lower str.
Code
Argosy Celata +1
DEF:116 HP+50 STR+30 DEX+30
Accuracy+30 Attack+35 Evasion-11 Haste+7%
"Store TP"+7
Augment-Icon.pngA:STR+12, DEX+12, Attack+20
Augment-Icon.pngB:HP+65, Accuracy+13, Attack+20
Augment-Icon.pngC:HP+65, STR+15, Physical Damage Taken-4%
Augment-Icon.pngD:DEX+12, Accuracy+20, Double Attack+3%


Normally you go with Path D because 3% DA is worth more then 12 STR for reasons I stated above. That gives Argosy head 30 STR, 5% DA and a *** ton of accuracy.

Flamma Zuchetto +2
Code
DEF:123 HP+80 MP+20 STR+36 DEX+32 VIT+24 AGI+16 INT+12 MND+12 CHR+12
Accuracy+44 Magic Accuracy+44 Evasion+49 Magic Evasion+53 "Magic Def. Bonus"+3
Haste+4% "Triple Attack"+5% "Store TP"+6
Set: Increases Strength, Dexterity, and Vitality


More STR then path D argosy, and 5% TA is much better then 5% DA (not double due to eight hit limit) and similar accuracy. Only major draw back is attack and the head is the slot with the least attack being contributed.
[+]
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-12 08:20:47  
Shiva.Flowen said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
I was trying to be as favorable towards Flamma +2 feet as I could while still being within reason. At best they are equal, in most situations they are worse.

I did think it seemed a bit generalised/situational for one of your posts :) Yeah for gear that basically comes free whilst gil farming, it's a bit too close to other options!


Well when I compare new gear like this, I try to go as generous as I can just to see if it has a chance in the first place, then start incorporating it into a build and seeing what the actual results would be. It's how some of the crazier setups can actually work out well. On this months Ambu I was doing DW WAR/NIN with Tanmogay +1 and Reikako using Vorpal Blade. WS's are going to be capped for any competent group, so melee damage is where the builds are differentiated.

Btw,
Ukon owners this is your month to shine, the weaker WS option isn't going to effect your damage one bit while the AM3 effect will double your melee damage.
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-10-12 09:35:32  
Preferred using Hexa with dual wield this month. It just has better SC properties.

When paired with BLU:
CDC->Hexa= Fusion.

If you are fast you can close that w/ Black Halo for light.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-12 11:18:29  
I was going for pure melee dps cause we has 3 DDs. I can see using hexa or evis for sc attributes.
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-10-12 12:46:41  
Ah yeah makes sense. Vorpalblade is pretty mean.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-10-12 13:03:06  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Shiva.Flowen said: »
Still a nice chunk of attack in favour of AF+3 and with reso's attack penalty I cant see flamma winning in many situations (outside capped attack with high MA ws sets where the extra DA adds very little chance of procs).

I was trying to be as favorable towards Flamma +2 feet as I could while still being within reason. At best they are equal, in most situations they are worse.

geigei said: »
Flamma head/feet/ring = basically trading almost 100att for 7 str and 6stp? acc and multi are pretty much equal.

That's ~100 base attack, before all the percentage modifiers. With just berserk up that 100 is worth 130 attack, value goes up as your buffed with more percentage buffs. And it's not equal because AF +3 feet have 9 DA while Flamma +2 only have 6 DA and the trade off involves 15 STR. The 6 Store TP is on your WS and wouldn't change much of anything, except ~maybe~ letting you shave off 1~2 Store TP in your TP set. I had to convert body and legs HQ Argosy pieces to Path D to get enough Store TP on WS to shave off 3~4 Store TP in TP sets (someone on here recommended that).

The above scenario was done with zero buffs or zone enhancements, meaning no vorseals, food, hasso or boost's. As you pile on more STR your WSC goes up and devalues that +15, thus that 2.8% higher damage values starts going down.

Now lets add Hasso (+7), Sublime Sushi (+6), Boost-STR (+25) and Vorseals with blessing (+60). That's 98 extra STR for.
Code
WAR AF +3 Feet
766 Total BDMG
Flamma +2 Feet
781 Total BDMG


Now we have a difference of ~1.9%, it's lost ~45% of it's value. That 3% DA doesn't lose it's value unless you pile on more multi-attack and fighters roll is the only way to do it and that roll is largely wasted on a WAR who is already geared to the teeth with Multi-Attack. And base attack isn't something that should be ignored on a WS with a 15% penalty. Also remember the Regal Ring adds +15 accuracy when your pairing it with an AF item, so switching it out for Flamma ring and Flamma ring is only 8 STR not the 10 from Regal so your missing another 2.

The real surprise here is how much Flamma +2 came stat wise (while ignoring non-negligible attack) to AF +3 feet. This is a huge upgrade for every other job and a nice boost to WAR's without the +3 feet. The Ring is an interesting stand in for those without Regal Ring.

Using the numbers you posted.
Code
 import random                                                                                       
                                                                                                     
 def multi(n, qa, ta, da):                                                                           
     r = random.random()                                                                             
     if r <= qa:                                                                                     
         n = n + 3                                                                                   
     elif r <= ta:                                                                                   
         n = n + 2                                                                                   
     elif r <= da:                                                                                   
         n = n + 1                                                                                   
     if n >= 8:                                                                                      
         return 8                                                                                    
     else:                                                                                           
         return n                                                                                    
                                                                                                     
                                                                                                     
 def mean(qa, ta, da):                                                                               
     s = 0                                                                                           
     count = 10000000                                                                                
     for i in range(count):                                                                          
         s = s + multi(multi(4, qa, ta, da), qa, ta, da)                                             
     return float(s)/count                                                                           
                                                                                                     
 s0 = mean(.03, .05, .69)                                                                            
 s1 = mean(.03, .05, .72)                                                                            
                                                                                                     
 print "Set 1 mean %.2f Set 2 mean %.2f marginal gain %.2f percent" % (                              
     s0, s1, 100 * (s1 - s0)/s0)  

Code
Set 1 mean 5.54 Set 2 mean 5.60 marginal gain 1.08 percent


Flamma still wins if you're attack/accuracy capped.
[+]
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-10-12 13:04:32  
Whoops, used the wrong base number of attack rounds for Reso (4 instead of 5.) Adjusting that, the results are.

Set 1 mean 6.50 Set 2 mean 6.55 marginal gain 0.90 percent

So flamma wins even more.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-12 14:30:53  
Umm Snaps, you get 2 MA rolls per WS not one and the way you do that is figuring out the average number of additional hits per WS.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-10-12 14:37:53  
his program does do two rolls.

and just subtract 5 from the final result and there is your answer
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-10-12 14:38:38  
The code does apply two MA rolls
Code
multi(multi(4, qa, ta, da), qa, ta, da)


The results of this are added together for 10 million iterations and used to determine an average number of reso hits. If you'd like to calculate it using another method, go ahead.
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