The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Bismarck.Zubuis
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By Bismarck.Zubuis 2017-09-19 19:27:51  
Sorry meant as a war/sam with a ragnarok for a 5 hit. Sorry for the vagueness.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-19 19:38:09  
60~70 total depending on what your WS set is like.
 Shiva.Fendarin
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By Shiva.Fendarin 2017-09-20 03:21:19  
Is that in gear sav or including 15 from /Sam, I've always done 62 in gear for 5 hit for my war, on my server a war I know says 50ish stp in gear is needed because of DA rate I use this for war and drk

ItemSet 352819

mail = vit +8 acc +27 STP +7
Ody Legs = acc +29 att+8 STP+7
Valour boots = vit +3 acc +15 STP +8
Ankou = DA10 dex +20 acc/att+30
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-20 07:19:13  
Shiva.Fendarin said: »
Is that in gear sav or including 15 from /Sam


Asura.Saevel said: »
60~70 total

Store TP from JT is identical to Store TP from gear and is always going to be +15. Don't separate it from your gear builds, it's critical to determining your TP return on WS and thus the actual store TP you need.
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 Shiva.Fendarin
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By Shiva.Fendarin 2017-09-20 09:56:53  
I get 213tp per hit with that set how do I determine my reso tp return as it's a 5 hit ws should I avg it to be 3 hit?, and how much tp do u add for the extra hits? I have 4+15 stp (145 tp return) in my reso set.A war friend said I have way to much stp for a 5hit (4hit+ws) but I can't see how I am,thanks saevel
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By Asura.Leonlionheart 2017-09-20 10:46:18  
What's the most up to date spreadsheet available? I'm using one from before omen era, which I don't think anything has changed WAR wise but I might as well ask.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-20 15:54:12  
Shiva.Fendarin said: »
I get 213tp per hit with that set how do I determine my reso tp return as it's a 5 hit ws should I avg it to be 3 hit?, and how much tp do u add for the extra hits? I have 4+15 stp (145 tp return) in my reso set.A war friend said I have way to much stp for a 5hit (4hit+ws) but I can't see how I am,thanks saevel

The first hit has full TP while each additional WS has +10, then Store TP is multiplied (though someone earlier had though there might be weird truncation happening).

Rag is 122 base TP per swing, and the general rule of thumb is to assume 4/5 hits land on Reso. So we get 122+30 for a 152 TP return then multiply by Store TP. In my Reso set I have 47 total Store TP so I would get a 152 * 1.47 = 223 TP return (4/5 hits). Now in reality I'm going to DA once on average and not going to miss one hit every time so it's more like 238 but we need to be conservative to account for the times you get bad rolls.

1000 - 223 = 777 TP needed in 4 swings, 777/4 = 194.25 [195], 195 TP needed per swing and Rag gives us 122 so 195/122 = 60 Store TP needed.

Now if your WS set has less Store TP then you will need more during TP phase. Also don't use the "I WS'd on a monster and got X TP back" as a benchmark because there is a lot of random stuff in this game and you need to plan for the lower part of the curve.

BTW that method will allow you to calculate out your Store TP needs for any weapon using any weaponskill with any gear build.
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 Shiva.Fendarin
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By Shiva.Fendarin 2017-09-21 03:16:26  
Thanks saevel that's just what I needed, very simple too. With 19 stp in my reso set I need 68 stp total, I am overshooting it a bit but when I use af3 feet it should be just right, not sure if I can fit legs in will need to re calculate then tyvm saevel for teaching me the method
 
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 Shiva.Fendarin
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By Shiva.Fendarin 2017-09-21 06:38:23  
When cor roll is on would u suggest lowering stp and stack more da or stay the same to lower to 4 hit if it enuff for that? What kinda +stp does cor give? I have 2 Cors with necklace in my group for omen
 Sylph.Atigevomega
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2017-09-21 06:53:59  
DirectX, the 119 Empy body would for sure be better then Argosy for TP. There are some other not so difficult bodies to obtain that are better than it though. Off the top of my head, Flamma +1 if you have it is pretty good and is just a point grind. Depending on friends/ls Emicho is also very good and not horribly difficult to obtain.

Fendarin, personally I do not adjust specifically for COR rolls. It is possible if you want too, but never needed to, I look at it as a bonus. (My Lua is written to account for it, if I choose to, and may in the future to squeeze a bit more DA in, but feel I would need to adjust for every rolls stp amount if I did this, since its natural range is 8-54 depending on roll number, if a sam is in pt, and not including crooked cards.)
 
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-21 07:35:41  
Shiva.Fendarin said: »
When cor roll is on would u suggest lowering stp and stack more da or stay the same to lower to 4 hit if it enuff for that? What kinda +stp does cor give? I have 2 Cors with necklace in my group for omen

Samurai's roll will bring you up a level, so your 5-hit becomes a 4-hit and so forth. The problem with trying to factoring in Samurai's roll is that the value isn't always the same, there is a huge variance between the bottom and the top.

Roll 10 with +5 ring is +44, with Crooked it's +52
Roll 11 with +7 ring and job bonus is +78, with Crooked it's +93.

You won't be getting perfect 11's every single time so we need to leave room for a non-perfect roll to still be useful, which it should be if your at a 5-hit.

Assuming that +44 my WS Store TP becomes 91 and my TP Store TP becomes 104.

152 * 1.91 = 290, so need 710 in 3 swings for 237 needed per swing. That ends up being 95 Store TP needed.

So even in an unfortunate situation where the COR's JA's are on cooldown, I still benefit from a decent roll. If I get a better roll then that's just bonus TP for the WS.

DirectX said: »
Is 119 Empyrean body+1 better than Argosy for TP?

Yes and there are a whole host of gear that's better then that. Argosy is an entire set focused on offensive stats like STR / DEX / Atk / Acc / DA / Store TP with almost no defensive stats. It's generally a very bad idea to TP in sets without any basic iLevel defensive stats as your opening yourself up to higher chances of random status ailments hindering your. There is a situation where your fighting stuff that's so beneath your level it doesn't matter, but such situations are usually not worth discussing anyway.
 
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 Quetzalcoatl.Khajit
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By Quetzalcoatl.Khajit 2017-09-21 08:41:20  
fotia is not 10% wsd. it's 0.1 ftp
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2017-09-21 09:23:53  
Upheaval transfers fTP across hits? I knew some WS did that, but I've never seen anything about Upheaval doing it.
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By Nariont 2017-09-21 09:42:55  
It does not
 Shiva.Spynx
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-09-21 09:46:51  
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Upheaval transfers fTP across hits? I knew some WS did that, but I've never seen anything about Upheaval doing it.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:FTP_Replicating_WS
 Shiva.Fendarin
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By Shiva.Fendarin 2017-09-21 09:55:41  
Thanks for th reply guys, mega can send me your war lua I'm using my drk one atm lol
 Shiva.Fendarin
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By Shiva.Fendarin 2017-09-21 09:57:26  
I need to change my neck/belt for savage blade then lil
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-21 10:13:31  
Fotia is not +10% WSD, bad translation is bad. It's +0.1 (actually 100/1024 which is 0.0976) to the first hit. Some WS's then copy that fTP, others don't, no Great Axe WS does.

Upheaval is
First Hit: 1.0 / 3.5 / 6.5

Then 1.0 on the three extra hits.

Since your always going to be using moonshade it's
1.6 + 3 x 1.0 + DA (usually 1.0 average). This makes VIT and Multi-Attack the best thing to use.

BUT we are Warriors and Savagery exists, so under buffed Warcry it's.
3.375 + 3 x 1.0 + DA, suddenly WSD just became very important as about half the damage is coming from that first hit.

And if your using Chango with Warcry up it's

4.85 + 3 x 1.0 + DA, so now most of your damage is from that first hit.

This is why it's important to have 2 different Upheaval sets, first being VIT DA focused with the second being VIT WSD focused.
 Sylph.Atigevomega
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2017-09-21 10:27:40  
Fendarin, yeah here ya go, note some of the gear has been replaced and the acc sets have been filled in (I took a pretty big break at the beginning of the year, came back for a month then took another lol) Also have one for ashita if you use that.

https://pastebin.com/ahztGkt4
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 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2017-09-21 11:56:08  
Shiva.Spynx said: »
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Upheaval transfers fTP across hits? I knew some WS did that, but I've never seen anything about Upheaval doing it.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:FTP_Replicating_WS

I really need to bookmark that page. I can never find it when I am looking for it.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-09-21 12:23:53  
The individual WS pages also have a note if they possess fTP transfer.
 Shiva.Fendarin
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By Shiva.Fendarin 2017-09-21 13:08:05  
Thanks mega

Saevel when I use that method with Sam roll it's becomes 2.085~~, would that be 108 stp?
 
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 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-09-21 14:46:14  
DirectX said: »
Wow. I thought all merit WS went across all hits. All the ones I use do - Resolution, Blade Shun, Entropy, Extenerator, Last Stand, Realmrazer, Ruinator, Requiescat and Stardiver do. So just MNK and WAR that got screwed. Really surprised about that.

Going to be honest, I just assumed this about Upheaval. But I was already using Reforged Body and Sulevia+2 feet for the STR/VIT.

I guess I need a VIT/WSDMG Cape now
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-21 16:30:25  
Shiva.Fendarin said: »
Thanks mega

Saevel when I use that method with Sam roll it's becomes 2.085~~, would that be 108 stp?

Yes 2.08 is +108 Store TP.
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By olson2189 2017-09-22 12:33:25  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Fotia is not +10% WSD, bad translation is bad. It's +0.1 (actually 100/1024 which is 0.0976) to the first hit. Some WS's then copy that fTP, others don't, no Great Axe WS does.

Upheaval is
First Hit: 1.0 / 3.5 / 6.5

Then 1.0 on the three extra hits.

Since your always going to be using moonshade it's
1.6 + 3 x 1.0 + DA (usually 1.0 average). This makes VIT and Multi-Attack the best thing to use.

BUT we are Warriors and Savagery exists, so under buffed Warcry it's.
3.375 + 3 x 1.0 + DA, suddenly WSD just became very important as about half the damage is coming from that first hit.

And if your using Chango with Warcry up it's

4.85 + 3 x 1.0 + DA, so now most of your damage is from that first hit.

This is why it's important to have 2 different Upheaval sets, first being VIT DA focused with the second being VIT WSD focused.

Thanks for showing these calculations Saev, that was really helpful. Is your lua set up to use different Upheaval sets at a specific TP cutoff (i.e., 2K)? What is that cutoff (including TP bonuses, since I imagine you've got it conditional on whether or not warcry is up, using Chango, etc.)? I realize there's no magical cutoff that is optimal for everyone because it depends on the DA in your Upheaval set, etc., but I'm just curious what you use (i.e., based on your builds, at what point does WSD become more valuable than VIT/DA).

Also, I was trying to replicate your 4.85 calculation based on Moonshade + Chango + Warcry/Savagery and I couldn't (I'm actually getting the 3.375), so was wondering if you could point to what's wrong in my calculation:

Total TP Bonus = 500 + 250 + 40*5 = 950
Assume WS at 1K TP, then 1,950 TP = 3.375 ftp
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-09-22 12:37:43  
Warcry is 700 TP bonus, not 200.
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