New Bard + March/haste Cap Questions

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2010-06-21
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New Bard + march/haste cap questions
 Fenrir.Mrflawed
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By Fenrir.Mrflawed 2011-11-23 19:31:46  
Victory march caps at 12.5% with 600 skill
Advancing march "Base Haste caps at 7%."
but adding any march + items gives an extra 1% (AF3 +2 hands is +1 and ghorn is +3)
so thats 19.5% + (4% x2) for ~27.5% correct?
or is the cap for Victory march higher now that your skill level can reach upwards of 800 combined skill

I wiki'd all the information and i used the old crappy site that no one likes/updates/takes seriously.

also, with the spell haste and double march one, given the 27.5% for double march), a person would get ~42.5% haste from spells on top of the 25% haste from gear which is ~67.5%
So is my math correct for the march part, and whats the haste cap again? ~80%
 Bahamut.Weasel
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By Bahamut.Weasel 2011-11-23 19:47:47  
Yes, max is 80% from gear, magic, and JAs together. Individually: gear 25%, magic 43.75%, JAs 25%.

And no, they haven't changed the haste cap on Victory March as far as I know. Honestly, with all this excessive skill, they need to come out with more songs that can't be capped with natural skill. What's the point of all this gear?
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-11-23 20:07:50  
Your starting figure for Advancing is a little high (64/1024, or 6.25%) and your value for march+1 is a little low (16/1024, about 1.5%). Other than that, everything looks right at a glance.
 Fenrir.Mrflawed
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By Fenrir.Mrflawed 2011-11-24 17:04:07  
oh oh oh wait i just remembered my other question!

soul voice doubles pot. of songs, sooo does that allow any breakage of the magic haste cap for the duration of the song+2hr?
or still has the magic cap at 43.75% (meaning with double marchs w/ 2h haste would be pointless)
 Fenrir.Niniann
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By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-11-24 17:11:08  
Fenrir.Mrflawed said: »
oh oh oh wait i just remembered my other question!

soul voice doubles pot. of songs, sooo does that allow any breakage of the magic haste cap for the duration of the song+2hr?
or still has the magic cap at 43.75% (meaning with double marchs w/ 2h haste would be pointless)

A cap is a cap. So yes, marchx2 during SV is pointless. When I 2hr on BRD, I do March+Min and Haste spell unless Min need to be Madrigal or something else. Also, Embrava is silly to use with SV March and Haste for the same reason.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-11-24 17:11:24  
Can't break cap.
necroskull Necro Bump Detected! [66 days between previous and next post]
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2012-01-29 17:42:19  
Bumping for clarification.

Will a Brd with a +2 march instrument and the +1 march from empy hands will cap magical haste without marcato nor SV?

This is what I understand it to be roughly:
Victory march ~12.5% +~4.50% = ~18.00%
Advancing march ~6.25% +~4.50% = ~10.75%
Haste: 15.00%
Total: 43.75%

I don't have Gjallarhorn yet and won't for a good long time so I needed to see at what point I should only use one march if ever prior to getting it.

My Victory with Marcato would be 27% right? That'd put me at 42% with haste. Is 1.75% haste worth using a second march? And I would guess if I get the +3 march instrument or are using SV that you'd use a just victory?
 Asura.Ludoggy
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By Asura.Ludoggy 2012-01-29 17:52:18  
You have your haste numbers off.

The 12.5 base you have for victory is from including the +2 instrument.

So you'll still be needing to use marcato to cap magic haste with both of them.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-29 17:54:21  
96/1024 is Victory March's cap, +48/1024 from +3 March.
144*1.5/1024 = 216/1024 = 21%
(216+150)/1024 = 35.7%

So you aren't particularly close to capping magic Haste with Marcato March + Haste. Someone with the +3 instrument would still only have 38% Haste. Someone with a 99 G-horn would give 40% Haste.

That said, if you have a Dancer you don't need to cap Magic Haste. Haste's total cap is 80%, (about 819/1024) and people generally gear for capped or near-capped gear Haste.
256 (gear) + 216 (Marcato V.March+3) + 150 (Haste spell) + 100 (Samba) + 100 (Hasso) = 822

So you're delay capped. DDs without Hasso are generally going to have Dual Wield or Martial Arts, which means they'll be delay capped too. In a zerg fight, I would have to imagine a Minuet V would be superior to whatever gear-based improvements the melee could make by breaking their 25% Haste builds.


But yeah, that's only with a Dancer. Without a Dancer, non-DRK 2H DDs can't cap Haste even with double Marches.
444 (Magic Haste cap) + 256 (Gear Haste Cap) + 100 (Hasso) = 800
That's almost 2% off the real cap, and would effectively be 10% damage if zergs these days weren't almost entirely WS (and thus WS delay) based. As it is, I can't really tell you what is the best.

Except for Dancers. We're the best.
[+]
 Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2012-01-29 18:09:30  
To summarize Byrth:

The correct answer is just to bring a Dancer and call it a day. You'll swing faster and the dancer's swag will make the rest of the party look better.

It's a mathematical fact, but I'm going to pull a Walter Rudin and leave the proof of that fact as an exercise to the curious reader.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2012-01-29 18:31:11  
Hmm, k I guess that'd explain why I was able to notice a visible difference with marcato. Thanks for the information. What is advancing's cap in /1024?
 Carbuncle.Crollion
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By Carbuncle.Crollion 2012-01-29 18:41:27  
if im correct it was posted above at 64/1024 but hey i could be wrong no math genius like these guys.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-29 18:46:23  
This thread has most everything you need to know about marches:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/99367-Victory-March-now-caps-%28Sad-Face-Here%29

Advancing caps at 64/1024 (before instruments)
[+]
 Bahamut.Atoreis
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By Bahamut.Atoreis 2012-01-30 04:29:20  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
96/1024 is Victory March's cap, +48/1024 from +3 March.
144*1.5/1024 = 216/1024 = 21%
(216+150)/1024 = 35.7%

So you aren't particularly close to capping magic Haste with Marcato March + Haste. Someone with the +3 instrument would still only have 38% Haste. Someone with a 99 G-horn would give 40% Haste.

That said, if you have a Dancer you don't need to cap Magic Haste. Haste's total cap is 80%, (about 819/1024) and people generally gear for capped or near-capped gear Haste.
256 (gear) + 216 (Marcato V.March+3) + 150 (Haste spell) + 100 (Samba) + 100 (Hasso) = 822

So you're delay capped. DDs without Hasso are generally going to have Dual Wield or Martial Arts, which means they'll be delay capped too. In a zerg fight, I would have to imagine a Minuet V would be superior to whatever gear-based improvements the melee could make by breaking their 25% Haste builds.


But yeah, that's only with a Dancer. Without a Dancer, non-DRK 2H DDs can't cap Haste even with double Marches.
444 (Magic Haste cap) + 256 (Gear Haste Cap) + 100 (Hasso) = 800
That's almost 2% off the real cap, and would effectively be 10% damage if zergs these days weren't almost entirely WS (and thus WS delay) based. As it is, I can't really tell you what is the best.

Except for Dancers. We're the best.

The problem with DNC is you need one for each melee pt :/
For 2hr zerg BRD wont even sing marches because you should have SCH there to embrava whole ally and thats magic cap with haste spell.
I think at this point COR buffs are more benefical for zerg then BRD.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-30 05:00:06  
For an ADL zerg, sure. TP-phase matters more there though, so Dancer is possibly still a +10% damage bonus for your non-DRK 2H users (WARs, SAMs, DRGs).

For something like Botulus Rex where you can't rely on 2-hours it is a different story though.
 Bahamut.Atoreis
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By Bahamut.Atoreis 2012-01-30 05:55:44  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
For an ADL zerg, sure. TP-phase matters more there though, so Dancer is possibly still a +10% damage bonus for your non-DRK 2H users (WARs, SAMs, DRGs).

For something like Botulus Rex where you can't rely on 2-hours it is a different story though.

Well for normal fight like Rex I still think DNC in DD party is a waste of space.

4heavyDD+brd+cor will be better than 3DD+DNC+BRD+COR.

For me DNC is made mostly for lowman and its priceless in some events but in big ally it hardly have any use over other jobs.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-30 06:02:42  
It could do worse. Exenterator has been a huge boost to the job. I find myself tanking monsters in pickup VW groups very frequently due to my attack speed (without any buffs even) and the damage I do.

My Ukko's average is lower than that on Pil, but I have put much less effort into WAR and am not even 99 yet (98 with the GA skill of a 93).
 Bahamut.Atoreis
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By Bahamut.Atoreis 2012-01-30 06:33:09  
Are all those Rudras with Climatic? or its mix of climatic and non climatic?

You are best or one of the best DNC on all servers so its hard to actually compare you to avg WAR. The differences in playstyle its very important too. I outdmg 99% of ppl on w/e job I go (DRK MNK or WAR).
I can usually outdmg 90% of Ukon WARs with my BLU too only because i actually use food and macros in optimal way. Sometimes I feel like I could parse 1st as melee WHM if Ragni wouldnt show up.

My usual parse looks like
30-50%me
10-20%Ragni (RNG or SAM)
10%Mischief BLM
below 10% Everyone else including random Ukkon WARs
Im in work now but I will post some when I come back home.
 Bahamut.Atoreis
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By Bahamut.Atoreis 2012-01-30 06:35:06  
wrong button
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-30 06:45:27  
tbqh, I don't do Voidwatch on Dancer very much because it doesn't have useful procs. I got one white proc during that Pil outing (Wild Flourish).

Most of those Rudra's are with Climactic, but you can see the one (Q.Q) that missed the main hit, or the other that didn't have Climactic. I think that one more of them (~1500) didn't have Climactic on it. Attack makes a huge difference, though. I use Exenterator when Climactic is down, and I am /WAR for Berserk.

Typically I get 300TP and 5 FMs between fights, then use RCB, Building Flourish, and Berserk before pop. Stalwart's, Braver's, Fanatic's on pop and then Presto -> Box Step -> Climactic Rudra's -> NRF -> Reverse -> Climactic Rudra's -> Dusty Wing -> Climactic Rudra's.

Pil is kind of an *** and generally tends to mess it up somehow, but that is what I like to try to do anyway. xD Also, dumping that kind of damage less than a minute into the fight makes him tend to try to kill me. No healer and DNC/WAR with Berserk up... I live until Fanatic's wears. I should really start making Pil alliances myself, lol.

I find that playstyle and temp usage has a big influence on how much damage I do / how the fight goes in general. People are still adapting to post-white voidwatch. They tend to want to sit around and hold the monster at 75%+ while they cap lights and then kill it instead of just blitzing it from 100% to 0% with a few procs and still ending up with capped lights. Also, quite a few people don't use statustimer and can't tell when their Fanatic's is going to fall to use another and keep it going.
 Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2012-01-30 07:19:23  
I made FFXI play the Invincibility Star music while Fanatic's is up. Now I rarely die to forgetting about it.

(it was rough after the update when xiview hadn't updated yet x_x)
 Bahamut.Atoreis
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By Bahamut.Atoreis 2012-01-30 07:22:47  
Recently I tried WAR vs good SAM parse at VW with me just using 3-4 Ukko to keep AM3 up and most dmg comes from swings. I still won. That is also reason why I started to care less for Ukko nerf (obviously that was with marches).

I actually wonder about this for DRK with Apoc. Is WSing at 80% delay reduction actually boost or reduce your DPS?
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-01-30 08:06:32  
Probably, yeah.

99 Apoc DRK DPS with capped Delay reduction, Ratio, fSTR, and 30% DA does about 1000 damage every 2 seconds on average. Unless you wouldn't break 1k damage on WS under the same conditions, it is better to WS.
 Bahamut.Atoreis
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By Bahamut.Atoreis 2012-01-30 13:14:19  
Too many characters.
 Bahamut.Atoreis
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By Bahamut.Atoreis 2012-01-30 13:16:10  
Bahamut.Atoreis said: »
Im in work now but I will post some when I come back home.

Uptala 1

Uptala2

Uptala 3 ( This one is good ;) )
 Bahamut.Atoreis
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By Bahamut.Atoreis 2012-01-30 13:17:01  
Pil

Pil with only 4 Ukko to keep AM3

Kaggen

Qilin (This one is closest that Ragni ever got on his SAM to my WAR)
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